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Loyalty and taking cities

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by STMO, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. STMO

    STMO Chieftain

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    I don't quite understand/have the technique conquering cities. They continue swapping back due to loyalty. Should I involve Governors in the attack?
     
  2. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Set a governor and a garrison in it, and use + Loyalty policies to hold on to it.
     
  3. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    governors only have limited use. The best method is to conquer cities more quickly. :) Really easy in my Mongol game as I have really fast units. This helps immensely. Otherwise you'll want to leave some units behind to reconquer the city that went to a free city. Another option is to peace out and removed the occupied penalty (though that may not be enough depending on how close you are to their big cities).

    Oh to reference the above post there are 2 policy cards to help with loyalty. I believe one is military and the other is economic. And the garrison helps along with a governor.
     
  4. STMO

    STMO Chieftain

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    OK, I am getting better, but this is not a walk in the park. Normally I don't burn cities down but now I have to think twice.
     
  5. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    I noticed when I took over Kongo loyalty really bouncing around. Just want to say it really helps to take a second city nearby. And especially when I took his capital.

    For some reason the losing loyalty messages are coming one turn too late for me. Even after I correct the issue.
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I have been looking into this... the pop loyalty spread is not as simple as they quote... and I thought Firaxis was being nice for a change.
    So here is an ugly WIP table of the distance effect from a cap purely of population... so to explain the graph a 5 population capital will exert -10 loyalty at a distance of 8 tiles... that is mighty strong. Population is the killer here.
    I said a few weeks ago, get three settlers in some jungle with builders, settle and chop in pop/granary for a frightening loyalty stab
    The thing is most other modifiers are for defence, nothing else really has such a strong effect as pop and more importantly population difference
    Has anyone seen a pop formula anyone has come up with yet? When two cities contect this is also not clear.
    Settling a city close to a 1 pop city is just fine, settle near a 5 pop city and you flip... simples.
    Just think of those minuses on the ground... a mere -2 means you will convert in 50 turns but that city is growing and next turn it could be -4 for 25 turns then 08... nasty.
    You are then forced to put in defences like cards which will take up valuable card space and useful governors that could be used elsewhere. Is it really worth it?
    Now you may think thats simple but what happens when you have 3 citues exerting -20. That -20 is the most they will exert is my understanding... its not really -60 and so a governor will reduce that to -12, garrison 10, etc etc... the RNDY withyy +2/+4 is now quite helpful in this regard.
    All of this is just guesswork to some degree, one is cautious but it looks this way
    I have to clean out chickens and I want to play a game today but will post more

    upload_2018-2-10_10-52-41.png

    I have yet to work look at exactly how a capital effects things. It may be more pop based than capital so taking out big cities and getting starvation and looting amenities will all help lower their loyalty while you are attacking them.
    A pop 1 city starts with +20 pressure but does not go all the way out to 9 tiles
    upload_2018-2-10_11-5-26.png

    This is not the entire list, just what I have got, I have not been all the way through the trees yet, if someone posts other bits I can add them to this an maybe eventually we can have a loyalty page whioch would be useful.

    pressure = N * pop * (10 - dist) - 10, capped to 0-20 range. N is 1 for normal city, 2 for Capital.

    Pressure from Nearby Citizens -20 = +20
    I can confirm that neither the Other column nor the Amenities column change the pressure a city exerts. They only affect how the city is behaving internally. Governors also have 0 effect on sending pressure apart from Amani's Prestige and Emissary promotions.
    Occupation -5
    Governor placed in the city +8
    Government Plaza - +8 loyalty to the city
    Audience Chamber -2 loyalty to cities without a governor
    Happy +3
    Ecstatic +6
    Colosseum provides +2 loyalty to every city within 6 tiles.. that amenity boost is also friggin strong.
    Government Plaza +8 loyalty to the city
    Amani will provide +4 local Amenities with the level 2 promoter promotion.
    Amani will give +2 loyalty to all your cities within 9 tiles with the Level 1 Prestige promotion
    Amani will give enemy cities within 9 tile +2 loyalty towards your civilization with the Emissary promotion
    Starvation, any starvation causes -4 loyalty
    Praetorium diplomatic card - governors provide an additional +2 loyalty to the city they are in
    Limitanei military card - +2 loyalty for a garrisoned unit
    Colonial Offices economic card = +3 loyaly to off continent cities
    During a Bread and Circuses project each citizen provides +1 loyalty pressure.
    Completing a Bread and Circuses Project provides a one-time boost of +20 loyalty to a city
    England: RNDY +2 on Continent +4 off Continent
    Holland: Trade Routes to your own cities provide +1 loyalty per turn for the source city
    Maphuche: If a Maphuche unit defeats an enemy unit within the borders of the enemy city, that city loses 20 Loyalty.
    Zulu: Isibongo Cities with a garrisoned unit get +3 Loyalty per turn, or +5 if it is a Corps or Army.
    Classical Admiral Themistocles grants +2 loyalty per turn to a city (1 charge unless Mausoleum)
    Renaissance Admiral Magellan grants +4 loyalty per turn to a city (1 charge unless Mausoleum)
    All cities within 6 tiles of the Statue of Liberty are always 100% loyal.
    Free City +10
    City STate +20
    A free city will stay free while 2 competing civs have equal pressure upon it.

    France one suspects will be rather strong with spies with the level 2 building and 7 spies starting at level 2! You could really cause damage.
    ESPIONAGE_FOMENT_UNREST_BASE_LOYALTY_CHANGE ="-15"
    ESPIONAGE_FOMENT_UNREST_LEVEL_IDENTITY_CHANGE ="25"
    ESPIONAGE_FOMENT_UNREST_LEVEL_LOYALTY_CHANGE"="-5"
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  7. Ondolindë

    Ondolindë Chieftain

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    @Victoria, but my confusion lies in this scenario. If one of my cities which happens to have 100/100 in loyalty, has a governor, and is closest to the city I would like to flip, by using Policy Cards for example that add 2 Loyalty if garrisoned (Limitanei) would not help. I can't go over 100 loyalty and the card won't affect the pressure exerted. Only population differences will, I guess, and how many cities are close and exerting pressure and Amani's abilities, right?
     
  8. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    Good info Victoria, thanks.

    I forgot to mention all my conquests so far have been in golden ages. I might have been in for a shock had I hit a dark age. But its super easy to get golden ages on Prince. But even with golden ages, I still needed that second city conquest to keep things positive. I am also having a problem with a former Brazil city I conquered a long time ago. Macedon who is across the ocean, but fairly close is exerting pressure. I was fine, but I think he grew faster than me. I was forced to move Amani there. The problem I think is the city is by itself, you really do need nearby cities. So then Macedon settles next to this troubled city, and I am now starting to flip him. If I do manage to get this city, I think my troubled city will be fine without Amani.
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Mainly yes, still not sure about how much if any affect governors have, it’s about the ease of testing and firetuner has limitations. Chopping in population now is the way to go, a 5 pop city is so much stronger than a 1 pop.
    You can also loot their land to remove their luxuries and starve them. To me this is the final step when they will not flip and you are in a position to, you do not have to capture the cities, just pillage them to flip.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
    Ondolindë likes this.
  10. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    I'm not happy with capitals flipping. Currently working on a way to give palaces a +boost to loyalty.
     
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  11. Hammurabbit

    Hammurabbit Chieftain

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    Having spent about 4-5 hours on R&F on a Windows tablet I borrowed (waiting for Mac release) I must say I'm quite happy with the loyalty mechanics (and related features).
    - Adds another dimension to wars. You have to plan it better (which cities, how to use governors, policy cards, which cities to keep / raze).
    - ... which leads to slower war expansion and slower "steam rolling"
    - Settling cities becomes much more of a chess game. Before it was all about housing and resources. No I found myself settling cities just to grab land that's available, because it runs out quickly...
    - Additional use for luxury resources

    Still need a few more hours to make a final verdict :)
     
  12. Magil

    Magil Monarch

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    Capital pops already exert double loyalty pressure, supposedly.
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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  14. sonicandfffan

    sonicandfffan Chieftain

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    That's unusual. The only thing I can think of that lowers governor loyalty is the Audience Chamber. It might be that the audience chamber's -2 effect is in place because the governor isn't established, but the +8 comes into effect from the turn they are assigned.
     
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  15. 54teltakt

    54teltakt Chieftain

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    its due to amani (8 -2 form her promotion)
    ive seen multiple citystates with first -2 and later -4 and -6 i think all caused by her promotion
     
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  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Excellent, One does indeed have a promoted Amani, just did not realise it removes it from the governors count.

    I'm trying to flip a capital at the moment but its not easy, looks like the Wuhan pop is upping the ratio to much.

    upload_2018-2-12_13-19-44.png

    Starving them too because of the natural Amenities.
    upload_2018-2-12_13-20-30.png
     
  17. Shadowhal

    Shadowhal Chieftain

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    Victoria, thanks for the table. Very useful. Forgive me for stating what may habe been said before but it almost looks like each citizen counts as 10 loyalty and that effect a) decays by 10% for each tile and b) is capped at +/- 20. Point (a) was as announced nut from previous Dev statements I had the impression each pop counts as 1 rather than 10 loyalty. Still, eith that the city's own pop loyalty effect is not considered.

    Really, it would seem best to me to split the pop effect into 3 components :
    - effect from city's own pop
    - effect from nearby owned cities
    - effect from nearby non-owned/foreign cities.

    That would make things a lot clearer, no? The caps could be reasonably adjusted.
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Well... Population pressure seems like its what you say but not that simple although I could be wrong, It seems more about the ratio than the pure pressure when it comes to multiple civs. Ragardless one single pop pressure is really useful as it the governor and amenities. Thwe other you cannot get more detail on unless its yous but you can guess well enough. Nice to see there is a base strength for a free city but 10 is just crazy low.
    I just woinder what the 27.1 is, perhaps the real value behind the +20 so you can work out oif using cards could make a difference?
    upload_2018-2-12_14-16-33.png

    CS comparison... just what is the whopping +11 "other"
    upload_2018-2-12_14-19-51.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    So here is the interaction between 2 newly founded civs with no other cities around

    At 4 tiles each is at -2 but between them its -14... theories?

    upload_2018-2-12_16-13-42.png

    I Increase Krakow to 2 pop and look what happens

    upload_2018-2-12_16-16-42.png
     
  20. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Firetune a city between them, if you don't mind. Let's see what happens.
     

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