Loyalty claim game in 7

[DeckerdJames]

Just a short suggestion. I like the loyalty push game, but I suggest a change.

I suggest that different terrain types cost different amounts of a city’s loyalty influence.

For example, flat grass or plains land might cost nothing and suppose that a city of sufficient population influences hexes 8 tiles away over these flat lands. On the other side of the city suppose there is dense jungle and woods 3 tiles deep, starting right next to the city center. These tiles cost the city’s influence more, so that, in this vague hypothetical scenario, the city’s influence might just barely penetrate and cover the thick woods and jungle. A rival civ would have greater potential to settle closer on the other side of the dense woods and jungle.

All the different terrain types would affect how far loyalty pressure extends. Desert would have a higher cost. Hills would be more moderate. Marsh tiles would have a higher cost. A sensible scheme like this.

I also pose that mountains completely use up what ever loyalty influence spills into that hex. So a complete mountain range would totally block influence and a rival Civ could settle on the other side without loyalty problems. However if a mountain tunnel exists, loyalty pressure can also pass through with reduced effectiveness, emanating from the mountain tunnel exit.

Coastal waters would block until the shipbuilding technology was unlocked and afterwards coastal waters would still have a high cost on loyalty influence pressure.

Ocean would block until ocean going technology was researched and afterwards would have an even higher cost than coastal waters.

These changes in Civ 6 would make the loyalty game more interesting and if loyalty pressure makes a comeback in Civ 7, I hope the terrain has a greater impact on it. I think it will make the land grabbing game more fun and elevate the strategic considerations of where to settle new cities.

 

[Naokaukodem]

I always claimed something should be done about what I call "land permeability", exactly how you did it, but I never thought it could be applicable to Civ6 Loyalty Pressure as I dislike this feature. However, it's well something like loyalty pressure that I was thinking about when emitting those ideas so... maybe that's the difference beetween theory and practice, but I never, for the moment, been totally comfortable with loyalty pressure, especially when it reveals to be so capricious. (sometimes you manage to keep your loyalty just fine with 20 or close pressure, sometimes not, and sometimes it seems plenty impossible, especially in conquer mode) This mechanic is not clear enough for me in other words. Close challenger is how cultural victory works in Civ6, not helped by the awkward overview panel. (It probably makes sense for a programmer, but I'm not - hey, it could even be a qualilty for QA no ? )

 

[pokiehl]

. Close challenger is how cultural victory works in Civ6, not helped by the awkward overview panel. (It probably makes sense for a programmer, but I'm not - hey, it could even be a qualilty for QA no ? )

You are so right. Culture victory is like rocket science to me…never figured out the real mechanics.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

You are so right. Culture victory is like rocket science to me…never figured out the real mechanics.

I gave up trying to understand culture mechanics back in Civ5 Brave New World

 

[Lord Lakely]

From what I understood, you generate a domestic tourist for every x Culture you accumulated (I believe it was 2000), and an inbound (edit: visiting) tourist for every x Tourism generated by any source (wonder, great work, national park, etc) (I believe it was 1000) over the course of a game. Your amount of visitors had to be higher than the number of domestic tourists of any other Civ.

So basically, if your Tourism output was more half of what the others were generating in culture, you were on course to win the game, and the higher the Your Tourism vs Their Culture ratio, the faster it would happen.

It's nebulous as heck, so if it's back I hope it's worded a bit better.

Also if Loyalty is back it will definitely be tied to Happiness.

 

[Naokaukodem]

I gave up trying to understand culture mechanics back in Civ5 Brave New World

To be frank I find the one in Civ5 much more understandable :

So basically, if your Tourism output was more half of what the others were generating in culture, you were on course to win the game, and the higher the Your Tourism vs Their Culture ratio, the faster it would happen.

I have no real issue with this but in Civ6 I don't feel like the sum up panel is really clear. For example I have no clue of what is a "domestic" tourist is, nor an "inbound" one. I don't even know if culture has its word in all that in Civ6.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I have no real issue with this but in Civ6 I don't feel like the sum up panel is really clear. For example I have no clue of what is a "domestic" tourist is, nor an "inbound" one. I don't even know if culture has its word in all that in Civ6.

The definition of domestic is "related to the home" while inbound means "traveling to a destination." So domestic tourists would be any of your people traveling inside your own civ. As far as I'm aware the term "inbound" is not used but the term "foreign", or "visiting", is and that's also explainable which ones those are.

It's similar to Civ 5 where you use culture (domestic tourists) to counter other civs tourism (foreign tourists), just worded more confusing.

 

[Naokaukodem]

The definition of domestic is "related to the home" while inbound means "traveling to a destination." So domestic tourists would be any of your people traveling inside your own civ. As far as I'm aware the term "inbound" is not used but the term "foreign", or "visiting", is and that's also explainable which ones those are.

It's similar to Civ 5 where you use culture (domestic tourists) to counter other civs tourism (foreign tourists), just worded more confusing.

Oh, so a "domestic tourist" would be a man from north of France going south of France for his hollidays ? Interesting. I still don't see how just "culture" can achieve that and only that (cultural victory-wise) though. On top of that I don't really understand how "tourism" into my country from another one just make these people more likely to "wear my blue jeans and listen my pop music" or something, providing their culture is lower than this "tourism". I guess Civ6 wording is an attempt to make more sense, at the expense of gameplay readability. (I mean it's clear in Civ5 but still has no sense terminology-wise )

 

[Lord Lakely]

I have no real issue with this but in Civ6 I don't feel like the sum up panel is really clear. For example I have no clue of what is a "domestic" tourist is, nor an "inbound" one. I don't even know if culture has its word in all that in Civ6.

It is indeed very poorly explained. Basically a "Domestic Tourist" is a defensive resource accumulated by generating Culture, while a "Visiting Tourist" is the Win Con you're actually generating with a Tourism victory. Those are the terms used by the Culture Victory overview itself, and for some reason are ONLY used there? lol.

 

[Uberfrog]

The tourism mechanic was an attempt to make the culture victory in Civ 5 more active, but by Civ 6 it had frankly ballooned into a confusing mess. Too many of its pieces anre calculated invisibly to the player, and the UI makes understanding what is happening needlessly hard. To this day, Reddit frequently sees threads along the lines of “why haven’t I won yet” where new players are left baffled in their attempt at victory.

I hope they have redesigned the cultural victory completely in Civ 7.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The tourism mechanic was an attempt to make the culture victory in Civ 5 more active, but by Civ 6 it had frankly ballooned into a confusing mess. Too many of its pieces anre calculated invisibly to the player, and the UI makes understanding what is happening needlessly hard. To this day, Reddit frequently sees threads along the lines of “why haven’t I won yet” where new players are left baffled in their attempt at victory.

I hope they have redesigned the cultural victory completely in Civ 7.

I'd be surprised if tourism doesn't come back, at least for the Modern Age culture victory condition since every age has a different one.

We already know that Antiquity has wonder building, and I think the Exploration Age has to do with religion.

 

[CalebR_300]

I wouldn't mind the civ 4 style system where cultural pressure allows for tile flipping, and tiles to contain cultural pressure from multiple civs.
Since 5 onwards, once you have a tile, it's pretty much yours unless you lose the city, or you get some kind of culture bomb effect (citadel for instance).
It would be cool if a tile that has culture pressure of multiple civs to become disputed territory that can be dealt with diplomatically.
For instance, you ignore it and cop the 'borders too close' penalty. Demand the disputed territory to either provoke war or a large diplo penalty, but the problem is resolved. Alternately, cede/swap territory for a diplo boost.
That said, I imagine this style culture pressure system would be way too elaborate compared to what Civ 7 actually has.

 

[Lord Lakely]

tbh, I would love to see Culture Victory more as a longterm goal where you cultivate World Heritage Sites inside your realm and shape your Cultural Identity. The former can be achieved by upgrading your Culture Buildings and Wonders over time, the latter by adopting plenty of Social Policies.

It's a loftier goal than "attract x many tourists".