[NFP] Loyalty flip with effect impossible?

Vincent_lacruz

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
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France
Hi, quick question. I haven't played for a few month, but I began to play a bit lately. My problem is that I tried to use the cultists to flip a neighbor cities, by as much as I tried it didn't work. I kept reducing them to 0 loyalty using cultists, but the small natural increase of loyalty seemed to prevent the flip...

As I rememberd it if you begin your turn with a 0 loyalty city at the start of your turn it flips before the natural increase. At least that is how I remembered it when the cultists first aired...

It was a multiplayer game, and I was targetting an ally. Maybe that had an impact?? Or did they changed how loyalty flips works in the recent updates? If so the cultist have become rather useless...
 

TheMarshmallowBear

Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
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Unless they changed it, I remember flipping cities with Cultists, so it may just have gotten broken

However,

as far I recall, I believe the game checks if the city starts the turn at 0 loyalty, then flips it. It may also be that it tdoes two checks, start of the turn, and end of the start (so after it applies Loyalty change), if either number is 0, it flips to Free Cities.
 

Linklite

Emperor
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Sep 2, 2019
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The city has to be losing loyalty overall as well as reaching zero, so you can't do it via cultists alone if there's any positive pressure from elsewhere. To flip the city, you need to have negative loyalty pressure and reduce the loyalty to zero.
 

Earl of Pembroke

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Dec 3, 2020
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Yes, agree with @Linklite , even if you have a spy in there or something, the city will only turn feral if its loyalty is 0 and there is a negative pressure. Does anyone know if this is also the case for Eleanor?
 

Vincent_lacruz

Chieftain
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Feb 27, 2019
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France
Well, that makes any effect that reduce loyalty points (cultists, Lorato's unit, spies, rock bands) utterly useless, since if the city is already in the red it will flip by itself, and if the city has even 0.1 loyalty/turn you can do anything you want it won't matter...
 

Linklite

Emperor
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Does anyone know if this is also the case for Eleanor?
It's been a while since I played Eleanor, but I'm pretty sure Eleanor is the same. However, since her ability allows her to pile on the negative pressure, it should be easier to get a net negative pressure onto another city.

Well, that makes any effect that reduce loyalty points (cultists, Lorato's unit, spies, rock bands) utterly useless, since if the city is already in the red it will flip by itself, and if the city has even 0.1 loyalty/turn you can do anything you want it won't matter...
I half agree.

It's not utterly useless. It can speed up the flipping process, and of you use the cultists on multiple cities simultaneously, you can eliminate that positive pressure and cause a flip. It's just harder. Alternatively, if they have a lone city, they can flip them (I think).

On the other hand, I feel like flipping has been made harder. When I first started playing with loyalty on, it was really easy to flip and almost every game I'd flip multiple cities, even by accident, and I could win games with just flips if I managed my cities carefully. Now, it feels like cities rarely flip at all, even if I try. Two extremes.

My opinion is that units like cultists, RBs etc should be nudges in the flipping game. You send them to cities that are still loyal, but not far from the edge, and give them a little nudge and...oopsadaisy, looks like we have a rebellion! Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way. They mostly just speed up flipping that's already happening.
 

Vincent_lacruz

Chieftain
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Feb 27, 2019
Messages
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France
Well, at least cultist can still cripple somewhat the opponent (or ally :mischief: ) economy by constantly lowering the loyalty of their cities, even if it doesn't cause a flip. Indeed, if you manage to keep the lolaty below 25 for a few turn that is -100% to all yields and no population growth. Not much, but it can still be problematic (example: preventing from repairing that spaceport, or slowing to a crawl a project). And in the worst case you at least get some sweet relics in the deal^^
 
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