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Loyalty system already doesn't seem right

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Brian LeClaire, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. Brian LeClaire

    Brian LeClaire Chieftain

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    I have two other civ's pretty close to me. I'm Scotland, I have America and China. China forward settles pretty close between myself and America. Next China declares war on me. Most of my units are close to this new city that they just settled so I easily take the city. I have the diplomat governor in the city closest to this new city of china's that I just took PLUS i have the civic to give me +2 loyalty with a unit fortified. Within 4 turns the city flips to a free city. Ok so I retake it one turn later but I forgot to put the diplo governor in that city so 6 turns later it flips back to free city. So next turn I take it back, I put the diplo governor in the city but it takes her 5 turns to be there. I have a unit fortified in the city. 7 turns later the city flips back to free. There's nothing I can do. I checked the loyalty and it adds up with all my bonuses I'm getting like +9 or something loyalty but the opposing pressure from cities is +30. There's nothing I can do to keep this city so it's perpetually flipping back and forth. It's literally flipped on me 5 times. It's been super annoying and leaves me thinking this can't be what they intended.
     
  2. Infixo

    Infixo Warlord

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    New mechanics that you need to account for when capturing cities. I fell into that trap and reloaded 5 turns back to rethink my strategy.
    When I took the city, it had ~40 loyalty and going down -10 per turn. And I was like „wtf, i can’t do sh.. in 4 turns”. My revised strategy was: take the city and make peace. This lowered loyalty downfall to -5 per turn. I put governor, and quickly settled another city nearby. Pressure from new city stabilized loyalty at -1 and after few turns it started to rise. Then I declared war and continued with other cities. The more I took, the easier was with loyalty, because they added more pressure.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    For a start having a governor near gives 0 benefit, they must be in the city.
    The governors loyalty takes effect on the turn you send them, other abilities take 3/5 turns.
    Local population should not be underestimated, I settled on a -20 tile in my first game and survived.
    So chop in granary/food ASAP, buy that builder but only if it’s going to save it.
    If you are in a dark age it’s maybe not worth doing, hunker down until a normal age. Equally the enemy in a golden age adds some too but nowhere near as much as a dark age damages you.
    Amenity cards can help also, +3 loyalty for happy but +6 for ecstatic.
    +9 is nothing, a governor and 1 pop.

    One key point... you say they forward settled you but they did not because they appear to have the stronger power in the area, they were expanding into an area more theirs than yours.
     
    CPWimmer, Atlas627, Babri and 3 others like this.
  4. Domain

    Domain Chieftain

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    Ugh see my experience so far is different.

    I invaded a nation close to me and didnt have any issues once the war was settled but when i went maybe and invaded the nation past that i couldnt hold on to a single city even with me grabbing + loyalty cards, monument and gov...at most i would get like 10 turns till flip and that is with me also taking over the citys near by and also making peace with the original person. i say original because another civ was starting to flip the citys instead of the person i took them from...so even tho i had like 4 cities in that area with 2 govs (both in cities close to each other idk if that makes a difference) and all the other stuff i was getting 5 turns...this is a bullfeathers system. I shouldnt have to settle a city for each city i take. By time i finished my war with Persia, i didnt get a city but just a mess of new city states that i was taking over and over and putting govs in while also fighting back India who was near by...
     
  5. Brian LeClaire

    Brian LeClaire Chieftain

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    The governor is supposed to add loyalty up to 9 tiles away I thought it said. One of the upgrades I had chosen unless I misread it. Also I was in a legendary age too. I don't see how that area was more theirs because it was right next to an established city of mine and considerably far away from any of theirs. Essentially what I'm finding is warfare is now much less fun.
     
  6. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    I'm finding it way more fun and dynamic. Keep in mind that loyalty goes down with each tile away from the source. Capture a city, place the governor, and station a garrison. Use policies to increase loyalty effects.
     
  7. Brian LeClaire

    Brian LeClaire Chieftain

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    Yeah if you read what I wrote I did exactly all that but it still flipped on me every 5 turns. Seriously like 5 times it did this. I'm not seeing how that's fun in any way. It was pretty irritating to me. Once sure, but when I'm taking steps to increase the loyalty and it's having zero effect, that's kind of pointless.
     
  8. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Chieftain

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    I'm about to do that myself. I'm scared to be honest.
     
  9. diggerjohn111

    diggerjohn111 Chieftain

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    You are supposed to be. I am loving the game.The loyalty system seems fine to me, you just have to be cautious.
     
  10. Esperr

    Esperr Chieftain

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    Im finding that I have to circle there capitol before trying to take it now, or else the cap and the citys just flip. Its a welcome change, and warfare is more difficult now. However so far after playing one game...

    Tall is back on the menu bois.

    No post game review of your historical thing is kind of a bummer though. Also the game bugged, I won a domination victory and it said I won a cultural victory. And still.no. HOF.
     
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Ah yes, sorry governor have a distance as well as pop, just everything else that’s 0.

    The main thing with taking cities is speed, the thing that’s flipping the cities more than anything is their capital.
    Loyalty looks like it has come on to slow down or limit warmongering. Just walking up and taking a city in enemy territory can cause flips like stated, you have to understand the sums and what is needed. You have to keep going and take the next city fast. I would not be so worried about it flipping neutral because it will leave you alone and you can go back and take it later. It’s when it will flip from neutral back to the civ you have to stop.
    If you cannot take other cities faorly quickly then make peace, this will remove a lot of the issue before it flips.
     
    Craig_Sutter and Uberfrog like this.
  12. Mr Jon of Cheam

    Mr Jon of Cheam Chieftain

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    I need to play a lot more before making up my mind but the loyalty system seems very well balanced to me. In my first game I was deliberately aiming for a tall, peaceful game as the Cree and although I saw other civs have loyalty issues (all that visibility with Poundmaker's ability is tasty) it never once affected my at all: I had full loyalty cities all the time.

    I then had a go at a Zulu rampage, deliberately warring in the same way I would have in Vanilla, and had a lot of trouble with loyalty, it was a nightmare to deal with but fun.

    I wasn't expecting it to be such a check on steamrolling through civs but it does seem to be effective, at least if you don't plan properly.
     
  13. zhivik

    zhivik Chieftain

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    I concur and I had a similar experience with my first game as the Mapuche. I got Mongolia and Spain declare a surprise war on me, took cities from both and then agreed to peace (both cities were ceded). The first (Mongolian) city was near my own border, so I managed to keep it loyal, especially after I installed Amani (with the extra loyalty pressure perk). However, the next two (Spanish) cities were sandwiched between the Mongolian and Spanish capitals and away from my core territory - there was a big mountain range to their east, my core cities were on the other side and away. What happened is that these two cities rebelled immediately (like in 5 turns) and even though I could easily reconquer them, they still didn't remain loyal, even with a governor installed. I resolved the situation by declaring war on Spain and taking Madrid, after which there was much less pressure from the Mongolian capital, so I managed to hold that territory - having three cities, one of them large, is going a long way.

    I love all this. The loyalty system is working as it should and I got my punishment deservedly. It makes you think what your strategic goals should be when you enter a war and require more careful planning, making the game much better, in my opinion. The only thing I believe could become an exploit is that rebelling cities are too easy to reconquer/put down, so it could be used as a way for easy experience for your units. After those two cities flipped a couple of times, I didn't have a unit with fewer than two promotions, some even got four.

    Also, I can confirm that while being in a dark age, it is far more difficult (though not impossible) to keep cities loyal. In another game, I had real trouble holding onto conquered cities, even relatively close to my core territory, without any cities between them. What I did was to leave the city in question to rebel (intervening only if it was about to flip to another civ) and just mopped up their units until the dark age was over, after which I was lucky to get a heroic age. Now that is something amazing - I became a powerhouse and steam rolled everyone. There were absolutely no loyalty issues and I could conquer in a more advanced position, as a single governor would suffice to keep cities loyal. By the way, there are loyalty-related policy cards - a military one (+2 loyalty for a city with a garrison unit) and a diplomatic one (+2 loyalty per turn for a city with a governor), so I suggest you use them if you have problems.

    Finally, I only need to say that the Monumentality dedication during a golden age is overpowered right now. It allows you to buy civilian units with faith or a reduced gold cost. The faith cost is ridiculously low at the moment, it starts like 80 faith for a builder and about 100 (or 110) for a settler, which is a huge advantage. It will be probably nerfed somewhat, but it does emphasise how beneficial golden ages can be.
     
    leandrombraz likes this.
  14. anandus

    anandus Errorist

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    So, you conquered a city, put a governor and a garrison in that city and it still flipped in 5 turns?
     
    Quintus of Mund likes this.
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Precisely, there have been lots of complaints about how easy it is to steamroller, and while it still is, it will fail unless you look before you leap. The main secret is speed, slow grinding wars will have city flipping amd what’s wrong with that anyway? While war continues cities could be indecisive.
     
    Quintus of Mund and Lord_Azazel like this.
  16. zhivik

    zhivik Chieftain

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    I had absolutely the same experience - it depends where the conquered city is located. If it is in the heart of another empire or near its capital, then you usually get a -20 loyalty pressure from it, so you can't do much about it, unless you are at least in a golden age. Even then it is difficult to hold on, so the new system encourages gradual conquering, city by city, and only if you have support. It also makes conquering someone on another continent much more difficult.
     
    Builderphile likes this.
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    So you have to remember that civs can be quite spread out now. I checked a few standard maps and they averaged 12 tiles with quite a few at 15. Now if a warmonger wants to play a 15 tile map, wandering over with a few archers and warriors to take a city will just be a fail.
     
  18. Cagarustus

    Cagarustus Chieftain

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    Make sure there are governors in nearby cities so that the loyalty pressure is higher.

    I was playing as Korea and I managed to capture 3 Egyptian cities that flipped. I was in a golden age so I think that helped. Also, the more citizens you have the more loyalty.

    I think I got lucky on my second R&F game around. Now, I’m cruising to a science victory.
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    A governor 4 tiles away in under 5 loyalty, 6 tiles away is 3.2 loyalty... not a lot and these governors have some pretty good uses in key cities.

    I am not sure Loyalty is really doing what I wanted, fast warmongers can pretty much ignore it, so sadly loyalty is reducing the value of those using less efficient tactics which is a shame because I was looking forward to creating a more historical spear/pike army with a smattering of knights but am now discouraged.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
    Craig_Sutter likes this.
  20. pietro1990

    pietro1990 Chieftain

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    Never take cities near the capital of another civ if you do you might as well take the capital or else you have loyalty problems
     

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