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[GS] Lumber mills vs removing forests and food surplus

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by rinelkind, Feb 27, 2019.

  1. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    When i settle a town, i also pretty much plan it out completely with 5-6 districts. I want it to have in its radius:
    -Place for those 5-6 districts with good adjacency
    -Place for 1 farm triangle, (preferably bordering other cities farm triangles so there is extra adjacency)
    -Place for the wonders i intend to build there.
    -A bare minimum of 6 productive tiles, preferable 10 productive tiles.

    I only cut those forests and jungles that do not fit in that plan or when there are more than say 10-12ish productive tiles. (note that i now play long builder games. If i were to still focus on winning a single VC as early as possible, i would probably cut tiles when there are more than 8 or so productive tiles instead of 10-12. This probably is related to your "staying at 10" topic. hell i don't stop growing at size 10. But i am aiming at a 300 turn game and i will grow them to size 20ish. If i were aiming at a <200 turn game for winning asap, i would indeed probably not grow them much beyond 10. Those citizens beyond 10 are definitely not useless or even unworthy, but it is true that during the last 50ish turns of your game, you don't want to be doing long term investments but prefer getting value out of your empire to speed up your victory condition.

    One of my cities needs to have 10 hills for ruhr, another needs 10 jungles for chitzen. Ruhr city can usually do a lot of cutting as every hill may be cleared, chitzen can cut all forests to get that chitzen done. Most cutting happens @ fuedalism, before that, only to make space for districts etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  2. Timewarp

    Timewarp Chieftain

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    Thank you for that tip. I was thinking this might be a good rule, it is good to see it confirmed.
     
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Sorry I missed these questions. Chopping in the same turn adds, in different turns seems to overwrite. This leads on to the next piece about moving Magnus. The better players move Magnus and 3-4 builders move to that city so the turn Magnus arrives all chopping is done and Magnus moves on. This “grand tour” you do in the order of the best chopping places or most important places to chop now. Some places would benefit more by waiting some turns.
     
  4. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Looks to me like a lot more considerations go into Magnus chopping than just feudalism and Chichen.

    One thing I found when I was going for the CV: if you have a cultural powerhouse, later you can chop 4 tiles away. Not only do you reap the chop without losing a workable tile, but I was chopping seaside resorts for the win. Plus housing and amenity improvements like monasteries and ski resorts still help at 4 tiles away. It's the best of both worlds: grow your pop without losing a workable tile for it to work. But then you lose factory and zoo density. At least at 4 tiles, you know you don't want lumber mills.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    And this makes early great merchant Marcus Licinius Crassus very powerful if used right

    Yes there is a lot more subtlety now they have changed the chopping rules but also simplification with bonus resources being the same as trees. The added future techs and civics have also watered down early chopping a little.
    Certainly late chopping your bronze and crabs before getting Big Ben is worth it big time but rarely seems done.
    I often early chop some bronze and crabs when I really am desperate for the gold, it’s worth it for something like early muskets which seems my main deity battle plan of late.
     
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  6. Nefelia

    Nefelia Prince

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    With the changes to lumber mills, I prefer to keep my trees around. I'll chop forests and jungle from tiles if I plan on placing a district or wonder there, otherwise it stays. Given the choice between farm or lumber mill, I choose lumber mill. The late game is so much more fun with good production.
     
  7. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    It's true, planning well ahead for Ruhr valley is a good thing. Any hillside forest in that city is choppable. Chopping forests to get Chichen also makes sense, to make sure you get the wonder. If you've got that many Rainforest tiles in your radius so as to make Chichen useful, then you will probably need those forest tiles cleared anyway.
     
  8. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I have always chopped pyramids up until this patch, Coliseum as well and sometimes others but typically that has been the line apart from sometimes chopping troops or settlers.
    Now pyramids tend to be left and you can sometimes get away with not but why risk it? Especially as someone pointed out a few weeks ago, Liang and Pyramids = Feudalism.
    Religious settlements has concentrated that view a lot. People are taking it because a settler earlier is key in the first phase of the game, so chopping them is a good idea if there are good places for them to go, and TBH, I find a good spot, that’s when I have chopped them in, and now the AI is better earlier chopping in troops is an advantage over the AI early and it’s not like they do not have a lot of advantages in the early game.
    So the whole chopping area does have variation of play and is not so simple, but chopping chicken early not so convinced on (not that you said we should) I am convinced everything needs planning early before it happens, and as chopping is so key to everything is a prime consideration. This is more raising the Liang/pyramids point and yet another governor conflict.
     
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  9. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Oh i never build the pyramids. I have seen you write a lot about it, but in my view its a pretty darn overrated wonder. Reason for that is probably mostly that i stopped trying to obtain more than 10 cities in any way. (and i have fallen in love with that playstyle, so much less chaos) With a limited empire, the number of workers needed is also limited. Maybe like 20 or so troughout the game. Pyramids might reduce that number by 4 or so. But since payback is over a long time, after the investment, i dont think it's worth it.

    Colloseum i like more, but not with a great hurry. The AI doesn't build it anyway, so i definitely dont need to chop for it. Its probably unlikely im building it before feudalism anyways.

    Settlers i don't chop because i build them in the first 50-60 turns and at that point the chop is worth barely more than the 1/3th or 1/4th worker. But again, that is because of my new tall playstyle.

    Chitzen is one of my favorite wonders because of the culture. (which also is the main reason to like colloseum because i never saw any need for the amenities). The AI competes for it quite a bit though.

    Of course i fully agree everything needs to be planned and there are many considerations to take into account. Cutting @ feudalism was just a simple guideline. I figured many people might be wondering why would you spend 60 production on a worker to do 3 cuts for 30 production each. That is just too little value. I know i wondered about that when people were frantically posting about cutting early. I don't think many people actually do cut much that early. @ feudalism your workers are much more efficient and the value of the cuts is at that point also getting significant.
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I thought your were a deity player. I have lost it quite a bit on deity. Seems more competitive after the last patch.
    220 production for something that gives 4 free charges and an additional charge to any current builder? So you may typically build this between builders 2&3 when a builder costs 60 production. (20 per charge) You get a 4 charge free builder + a charge on the one that finished the chop so that is 100 production back + a minimum of 20 per builder after that. Add to that the era points, tourism, adjacency and +2 culture (a monument is 60 production) and to me it is not hard to justify even in a small civ but granted it does take a few turns off a city to build. pretty darn overrated I struggle with. granted for RV's it is not worth while really but for SV's it saves quite a few turns that are TBH pretty boring.
     
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  11. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    You are right, i overstated that probably.
    I don't think it's super exceptional and often prefer to just scramble by getting those few workers when needed rather than locking up a city for quite a while.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    And that’s fair enough.
    For me personally, not finding a piece of desert for it in the first 20 turns is quite a blow to my game and I really notice the difference. 5 charge builders (with Liang) are saving at least 50 production each before Feudalism and probably similar initially afterward. That’s noticeable.
     
  13. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Yes, but the way i look at it, i count for an interest rate of about 4% or so in the game. So say i invest 100 production (roughly the real immediate cost of the pyramids after substracting the value of that free worker and the monument worth of culture)

    10 turns later, i produce a worker for say 60 production, it gets 1 more action, that 1 more action is worth 20 production at that point. (15 if i use liang and go from 4 to 5 instead of from 3 to 4) But converted by inflation to the moment i built the pyramids, those 20 are only ~14. The next worker i produce is 20 turns after the pyramid investment, converted for inflation, this extra worker action is worth maybe about 10 production and it gets lower and lower as the game goes on. If you want to pay back those 100 production investment, you will need to produce a decent number of workers shortly after completing the pyramids. On top of that, building the pyramids takes a relatively long build time, long build times also cost extra as during that time you are also losing inflation on your partial investment.

    Additional reason i think it's not that special is that it does nothing that i can't get in other ways too. Other wonders are imo of bigger importance because many of them have unique effects that i can only get trough that wonder. (but none are worthy enough that early i think, since settlers (at least the first 5 ish) have an ROI so much higher than that 4% interest rate, i can't find justification to build any wonders in that era). Except if my empire is really, really small (5CC or less) then i will probably want to build an oracle in my pingala city because that is going to allow me to compete on great people i would otherwise never get, most notably great engineers.

    Edit: I used the words interest rate, inflation and ROI, i didn't use them exactly correct in relation to how they are used in the real world. But i am sure you understand what i mean. 4% per turn is a rough average of what i expect investments to repay and x production on turn 30 therefore worth a lot more than that same amount of production on turn 50. And by turn 100, x has become very insignificant.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
  14. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Key thing with Pyramids is that, once you build it, you get a free improved builder and existing builders gain +1 building charge. So, uniquely compared to other Wonders, it’s acquisition cost is offset by what it immediately gives you, plus you can pre-build the workers for it. Plus now you have Era Score right before a Medieval Monumentality Golden Age (which is just when you want Pyramids) and a good location for a Theatre Square (potentially more Era Score) and you get a Eureka for Theatre Squares. Pretty good deal.

    The only problem I’m finding is the AI gets Pyramids fairly sharpish, so you can’t muck around grabbing it. Even Colloseum goes now, so can’t faff around with that one either.
     
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I am finding the pyramids I can even get post T100 sometimes while the Coliseum seems to go before I have discovered it.
     
  16. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Wow. That has not been my experience at all. Pyramids has been going fast for me. I’m playing Immortal, C+I, large maps. I’d figured it was the large maps that were killing me - more desert, more chance of AI with strong starts, more chance of AI with wonder bonuses and or agendas.

    But weirdly I can pretty much always get Hanging Gardens now. Which are rubbish, but always so tempting. The only Wonder that probably never actually existed.
     
  17. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Not my experience either.
    I always lived in the presumption that colloseum is the easiest to get because the AI doesn't need the amenities and thus doesn't complete the prereq for the colloseum and so far that seemed to be true for me.

    Pyramids is one of those that sometimes goes super early, but every now and then the AI seems to forget about it.

    Haven't played enough to know if the last patch changed this situation.
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Got it last night at T80 no trouble. You cannot hang around but it is certainly no stonehenge.
     
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  19. Gaonac'h

    Gaonac'h Chieftain

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    Pyramids brings you thousands and thousands of production through at the game and is one of the strongest wonder for SV. With 5/6 civics it only take 3 chops to get it with Magnus.
    All the builders you used to build it get +1 charges, you get a free 4 charges builder and a good shot a Cassical golden age.
    Also with Pyramids Ancestral Hall become a decent choice. Not so overrated =)
     
  20. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    Your calculation is correct under the assumption of building a builder every 10 turns.

    More accurately, note that builders final charge is must worse than its first charge since that charge is used 5~10 turns after the builder being built so there's also inflation. If you produce a builder the extra charge may worth 10 if his first charge worth 20. Making Pyramid less worthwhile.

    However we don't build builders in a rate like every 10 turns.

    For me I guess I build one every 2~3 turns. In a typical game I usually build 60~150 builders. Maybe 80~100 in average. So roughly one every 2 turns. So Pyramid is great efficient for me.

    Also note that the instant +1 charge bonus applies to all existing builders, so you can actually store a few 1-charge builders before finishing the Pyramid.
     

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