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Lumbermill vs. Mine vs. Chopping balancing?

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by agc28, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. agc28

    agc28 Warlord

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    I am fine with the 80 Hammer chop. But I think there should be reward for keeping the forest in order to offset the chop. Also, it makes no sense that the mine should be almost always better than a lumbermill, on a forested hill.

    I personally changed the Wealth policy tree:

    I gave the Lumber Mill +1 Production and +1 Gold in Protectionism, and moved the +1 Production to Mines to the finisher. I also moved the +1 Gold to Villages to the Caravan policy. This way, the Lumber Mill will be worse than Mines initially in the ancient era, but it will produce more Gold in the long run.

    But I still think the Lumbermill is not buffed enough.

    For those of you with more experience in balancing. How do you think I should buff the lumbermill? I can't add another Gold to Lumbermill, because then it will be millions times better than Villages. Do you think I can add one Science to Lumbermill, perhaps in one of the rationalism policies?
     
  2. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    agree that if we're to put in buffs for a improvement, it should be a) late/mid-to-late game and b) it's best tied to a policy/ideology. But I'm not sure making the pay-off between production and gold is the best way to go. With your idea, aren't lumbermills then basically just the midpoint between mines and villages? (on hills, on flatlands they're the most production you can get).

    The other way to go would be to buff them via an ideology. I can see a "Ecology" ideology in Freedom adding science and/or a "Natural Wealth" (or Gulag? :)) ideology in Order adding .... tourism or happiness? Just something awesome :).

    To be honest, I'm not sure if there's already a ideology affecting this. I prefer some improvements to stay "niche" (in that they're late game awesome).
     
  3. agc28

    agc28 Warlord

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    Oh i have no clue how to mod the ideologies....I only know how to mod things based on the existing CEP files. It would be much easier for me if Thal et al did an initial round of balancimg for the ideologies, then i can mod their files.

    Happiness! Thats right! How about +1Happiness per lumbermill in the rationalism finisher? IS it possible to put happiness yield on an improvement? I think so, but not sure. happinesd fits perfectly, but may be too strong. How do I add yield ONLY to city happiness? Not sure how to do the code...
     
  4. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    It's definitely too strong for a finisher and probably way to easy to abuse by the human compared to the AI. That's why I'd think this could fit very well as a tier-2 policy. Potentially very strong, but you don't get it very often. Even then it might be too strong.

    So you just overwrite the existing CEP files for yourself? That's a way too I guess. Creating a mod with modbuddy is very straightforward I think (I just don't have the time...) and ideologies should be very similar to policies in the files.

    I do think they're on the list of to-do-soon when you go look over on github.
     
  5. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    The 80 chop is ridiculous. Mines and mills would probably be fine if engineers were not +3 and the chop was lowered to about half of that.
     
  6. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I really wish we'd return to something close to vanilla balance.

    Engineers: 2 production, 3 GPPs.

    Hill: 2 production.
    Mine: 1 production, +1 production with freshwater ~medieval era, +1 production without freshwater ~industrial era.
    Mill: 1 production, +1 production with freshwater ~medieval era, +1 production without freshwater ~industrial era.

    Boosted additional +1 by an Order ideology policy.

    Modest chop value (no more than 40 production).

    It seems like a no brainer.
     
  7. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    :agree:

    This will no doubt be the end result, it will just need us to keep on about the benefits.
    As I said in another thread, the changes are coming like a dripping tap.

    Until Thal falls off the planet, and I am not wishing for that, he still is lead on this project and we will fall in behind his choices. We have been successful lately in swaying his view on a number of choices so this has just a good chance as those other ones.

    Keep dripping.
     
  8. timbuktu

    timbuktu Warlord

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    80 production from chopping is too much, world wonders can be built in bulk by this way, 40 is fine but I would set the minimum return from chopping to 10 production.

    Removing jungle should give some production too, still there are some kind of plants with good quality wood. Let say 25 production? Further, if mechanism of natural regrowing jungle is possible to be implenented and it is, return yield from chopping will be 5 or 10, depending on pace of regrowning.
     
  9. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    I too agree that 80 production from chopping is too high. You shouldn't be able to get a wonder from chopping (or a lot of it). Not sure what the correct value is for it, but 80 is too high.

    I also agree that the economics in the mod are imbalanced in regard to specialists. A big issue I have is that in the game 1 science equals 1 production equals 1 gold. This is just patently false. Science is more important than production or gold. It is a better yield. Production is also better than gold.

    This imbalance is what causes Great Merchants to be less valuable than Great Scientists. Ideally, Great Merchants, Great Scientists, or Great Engineers should be equally valuable, but right now that isn't the case. Scientists are best, then Engineers, then Merchants. I've been pondering how to correct this and come up with an idea that I want to test out in my own mod.

    I want to have Scientists (citizens assigned in a city) be worth 2 Science, Engineers yield 3 Production, and Merchants yield 4 gold. Also, I want to have Academies yield 6 science, Manufactories yield 9 production, and Custom Houses yield 12 gold.

    The theory is that 1 science should equal 1.5 production and 2 gold, so citizens in a city would represent that ratio and so would great person tile improvements.
     
  10. agc28

    agc28 Warlord

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    Hi EricB,

    I just changed the Specialists and the Great Improvements according to your ratio. I will see how this plays out.

    Thanks for the idea
     

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