Macemen and crossbowmen

With the bronze/iron argument on Macemen, either metal might work because of the sheer blunt force trauma caused by whacking somebody with a large, heavy metal clubhead.
 
The maces in Civ4 (also called chain-maces) appear to have a ball at least six inches in diameter dangling from a handle about two feet long. Now an iron ball of that size would weigh about 29 pounds; could you hold such a ponderous weight hanging from such a handle held horizontal ? And could you swing it around in combat ? If you could, but missed, how many times would you spin round before regaining control ?
Metric equivalents for non-Americans: 15cm diam, 13.2Kg, 60cm handle.

Thanny - cast iron is indeed hard, but brittle, strong in compression but not in tension, and unsuitable for thin sheets.
 
The maces in Civ4 (also called chain-maces) appear to have a ball at least six inches in diameter dangling from a handle about two feet long. Now an iron ball of that size would weigh about 29 pounds; could you hold such a ponderous weight hanging from such a handle held horizontal ? And could you swing it around in combat ? If you could, but missed, how many times would you spin round before regaining control ?
Metric equivalents for non-Americans: 15cm diam, 13.2Kg, 60cm handle.

Obviously just iron plated... Filled with straw to cut down production costs.
 
It doesn't matter too much whether or not it's realistic for macemen to require machinery. What matters is gameplay. I think the system as it is is just fine. Beelining to civil service doesn't take too long. At that point in the game many civs are taking detours to drama, music, aesthetics, literature, or even monarchy, monotheism, etc. There are so many things to do at that point in the game, so many wonders to build, etc, it would not be balanced if one could simply beeline to CS and get maces. Macemen represent medeival warfare. Teching to CS AND ALSO going through metal working and then machinery takes time, it takes enough time that you do pass into the medieval era (because of machinery) and it also feels like you've entered the medieval era too. It helps keep the macemen from showing up until an appropriate time, otherwise you'd have maces in the BCs...and that would just be lame.
 
Macemen are awesome. I just built some in a game. It is 1270 AD in that game. I like the "no tech brokering" option.

I'm not very good at forums...
 
I also have a question about macemen.

If you put a good maceman (ball and chain guy) against a good sword like maximus Decimus Meridius (Gladiator, haha) the guy with the sword would win more often because of the agility.

Since CIII Conquests, I have though that the maceman should come and then the swordsman should be next in line.
 
You have no agility with a sword... Especially a longsword, there a heavy and are useless if the oposition has decent armour. The Mace is the next in line. Though I think there should be a short sword and longsword.

But as a quick thought, he comes some jackass charging you with a sword, it weights a lot and takes someforce to swing. Then there make it to you swing this sword, it is noticable but inneffective against armour, you swing your giant lump of metal and strike them across his skull, no more jackass...
 
I agree with Noto. Gameplay is what matters. I often get Crossbowmen first, they are excellent against axemen, who are normally everywhere by the time I get Crossbowmen.

I'm glad Macement (tend to) appear later - I pacify my neighbors to a decent extent before they appear. thereafter it gets tougher!
 
Not to mention that steel, made from iron tempered with carbon or other hardening agents is much harder than either bronze or iron alone.
 
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Secondary, required resources are "funny". Crossbowmen need iron (why???), while macemen need either iron or copper.
Macemen are stronger than crossbowmen, so they should have more building limitations than the others; they wear iron armors and use iron maces. Besides, Crossbowmen could also be built with copper only; they don't seem to wear iron armors, and their weapons are made with wood (and maybe a little amount of metal).
I swap their requirements, enabling crossbowmen with either iron or copper, and macemen with iron only.

These two little changes would drastically change the middle ages game. Crossbowmen would be easier to build, and would be enabled by a completely different tech path than macemen. In addition, macemen would pay their superior strength with an higher resource requirement.

I looked at the Copper and Iron as a balance issue. For a medieval era, it almost always ensures that you have access to a good unit for that era particularly if you're not the warring type.

I also agree with Diamondeye that if you remove Machinery, it would be a good idea to add Metal Casting. It may still make Macemen available too early and be a larger change that it appears. I would have to look in more detail at the tech tree to see what earlier units it might effectively obsolete.
 
Copper or iron, I think is to make a player not vunurable during the medieval era Iron gives you knights, crossbowmen and mace-men so the only none iron needed unit is longbow-men and mace-men.
 
I also have a question about macemen.

If you put a good maceman (ball and chain guy) against a good sword like maximus Decimus Meridius (Gladiator, haha) the guy with the sword would win more often because of the agility.

Since CIII Conquests, I have though that the maceman should come and then the swordsman should be next in line.

Thing to not overlook is that Civ graphics resemble individual combat, but the game represents battalions of soldiers. A mass of macemen meeting a mass of swordsmen is going to favor the macemen.

The morning star mace is not as large as it is portrayed and it makes no difference if it is bronze or iron. What matters is that on the end of the chain, the momentum of the weighted end is so great that the force of the impact will do serious injury against any armor or helmet that a man can wear. While despite what you see in movies and tv and read in fantasy books, a sword will not cut through metal armor ( or most non metal armors ) when swung with human strength.

As far as needing bureaucracy, that's about organization. The mace is a difficult weapon to learn and training masses of men to use them is a major undertaking.

Also, most ancient crossbows had bows made of wood. Iron was not necessary, and the earlier times did not have the ability to make spring grade steel. I forget when spring grade bronze was available, but there is bronze that is better than steel for springs.
 
Thing to not overlook is that Civ graphics resemble individual combat, but the game represents battalions of soldiers. A mass of macemen meeting a mass of swordsmen is going to favor the macemen.

The morning star mace is not as large as it is portrayed and it makes no difference if it is bronze or iron. What matters is that on the end of the chain, the momentum of the weighted end is so great that the force of the impact will do serious injury against any armor or helmet that a man can wear. While despite what you see in movies and tv and read in fantasy books, a sword will not cut through metal armor ( or most non metal armors ) when swung with human strength.

As far as needing bureaucracy, that's about organization. The mace is a difficult weapon to learn and training masses of men to use them is a major undertaking.

Also, most ancient crossbows had bows made of wood. Iron was not necessary, and the earlier times did not have the ability to make spring grade steel. I forget when spring grade bronze was available, but there is bronze that is better than steel for springs.

Macemen where in no way the typical or even a common medieval unit. A blunt weapon is cumbersome and exists only in the purpose of beating armored foes - for unarmored combat, a sword works pretty much better. So an unarmored swordman would easily defeat an unarmored maceman. Most medieval armies were composed of unarmored, ill-trained peasants and archers and also the elite cavalry units, the knights. As armor were expensive, most armored units were composed of the ones who could afford their own armor, that is, the nobles and a few well-paid elite anti-cavalry units, as pikeman. A noble fighting unhorsed was unconceivable. So this kind of weapon were most seem in the hands of the knights themselves, who would bang swords against other knights only when they wanted their foe alive for the ransom. For an armored knight to kill another armored knight, a mace or flail is the weapon of choice. As using a flail against a guy four foot over your head is pointless - when a pike, in other hand, can do wonders - the "maceman" is almost a myth. Elite infantry was almost unheard of until about the 14th century, when professional mercenaries and standing armies took their place. Even then, when someone needed to face armored infantry, axes were far more versatile and common tools of the trade.
 
HerrDoktor, nice post. I like history (like many Civ players), and assuming that was all accurate (not in any way saying its not!), that's really interesting.

What, however, I think we are all ignoring, is the possiblity of a Tungsten-cored mace. That would be heavy and would be a really bad idea. Also I don't know anything about Tungsten, but I'm guessing that they didn't make extensive use of it during the middle ages. Also, bureaucrazy or not, I don't think medicare was very good in the middle ages, in Europe or elsewhere. That's why medicine is so late in the tech tree.

I think I screwed up another post.
 
A noble fighting unhorsed was unconceivable.

Atoleiros , Portugal , 1384

Aljubarrota , Portugal , 1385

Not common, rare... but not unconceivable
 
in my deffinition, maces do not have a chain either.
The way I think of it, is that Macemen have a greater amount of metal in the mace and in armor than preceeding melee units. Therefore, the production facility needs to be able to do more with the same man power to produce them. Look at the other units, mostly leather or studded leather armor. The Maceman is the first one that seems to have armor, and a helmet, and greeves etc... which requires more input of base materials. Since your towns are the same size, you can only produce these then with more efficient use of man hours, hence the need for machinery. Machinery in mining, transportation, and production. With machinery, you can build watermills and windmills, used for improved production, so, machinery makes sense, to me.
 
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