Macemen Rush?

TERACytE

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Is it possible to acquire macemen early in the game? I find that if I get macemen I usually win, but I feel that I tend to acquire it to late in the game.

Can any offer any insights on how to get macemen fast in the game? (starting leader, techs, build order, use of great people, etc)
 

ParadigmShifter

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Oracle civil service.

Get metal casting, run an engineer with a forge, bulb machinery.
 

goodolarchie

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Why macemen? If you stop at this point to militarize you're stymieing research very close to the last few liberalism techs, which will probably do you more good. Axes against archers, or swords and catapults against axe, longbow, etc. will have the same effect and much earlier/easier. It's somewhat contradictory to put "macemen" and "rush" together. There are some good guides on how to dominate with the mace UU's like samarai though, if that's your thing!
 

DigitalBoy

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Oracle civil service.

Get metal casting, run an engineer with a forge, bulb machinery.

If you're teching fast enough for a CS oracle-slingshot to be viable, I'd think that you'd research Metal Casting->Machinery with beakers before the Great Engineer arrived.

What about teching Metal Casting first, assigning an engineer specialist, and researching towards Civil Service while you wait for the GE?
 

ParadigmShifter

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Yeah, probably better.
 
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glh + Oracle/CoL...use castes with glh city to get GMs, bulb those for MC and CS while researching the other techs. I've had maces by 100AD on marathon/monarch using this technique. Two full conquests before seeing a longbow/xbow. Build no more than 6-8 cities while doing this, and play very friendly diplomacy until you have the maces. Only then do you go medieval (literally) on their asses.
 

ParadigmShifter

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I've Oracled civil service at 1000BC before, so 100AD sounds a bit slow ;)

I've also Oracled longbows for Churchill at 1000BC.
 

iggymnrr

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Warring with macemen means its not your first war and probably not your second (or third). Cats, axe and horse archers can take out longbows easily enough if the cities are not on a hill. Accuracy cats to reduce defense, then promoted flankers (from previous wars,) then axe. I've done this before even with phants in the stack and mace on the way.

Edit: If you have managed to capture both TGL and mids, mace will not be a problem.
 
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I've Oracled civil service at 1000BC before, so 100AD sounds a bit slow ;)

I've also Oracled longbows for Churchill at 1000BC.
What speed/level are you doing that at, and are you counting on lucky huts? I strongly suspect a 1000BC civil service Oracle is done at warlord, after popping some nice huts.

If not, please post a step by step demonstration, because I for one would be very interested in knowing how to do this.
 

Sportyatuncw06

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The biggest problem with the macemen rush to me is the city defense. By time you get them most capitals will have at least 50 or 60% defense. Outside of a few outlying cities or an AI who neglects culture all together you will see nothing below 40% defense. A pure maceman rush is not really feasible imo they need to be paired with a siege weapon. I usually wait for engineering and go with a pike/mace/treb asault myself. Much more balanced. Also beelining ot CS and Mach will skip lots of other useful tech (cur/cal/math/ect)
 

ParadigmShifter

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Last time I got civil service at 1000BC was on prince level for GMinor91

Turn Date Event
0 4000 BC Mutal has been founded.
5 3700 BC You have discovered Agriculture!
Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!
6 3640 BC Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!
10 3400 BC The villagers have given you the secrets of a new Technology!
You have discovered Fishing!
You have discovered The Wheel!
15 3100 BC You have discovered Pottery!
17 2980 BC The villagers give you gold! You have received 17 gold!
19 2860 BC The villagers have provided your unit with experience!
20 2800 BC Judaism has been founded in a distant land!
21 2740 BC You have discovered Writing!
25 2500 BC You have discovered Meditation!
28 2320 BC You have discovered Priesthood!
30 2200 BC Lakamha has been founded.
35 1900 BC The villagers have provided you with a map!
38 1720 BC The villagers give you gold! You have received 26 gold!
Confucianism has been founded in Lakamha!
You have discovered Code of Laws!
39 1660 BC The revolution has begun!!!
Paradigm Shifter converts to Confucianism!
42 1480 BC Confucianism has spread in Mutal.
The villagers are hostile!
44 1360 BC Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!
45 1300 BC You have discovered Monarchy!
46 1240 BC The revolution has begun!!!
Paradigm Shifter adopts Hereditary Rule!
49 1060 BC The villagers have given you the secrets of a new Technology!
You have discovered Bronze Working!
You have discovered Mathematics!
50 1000 BC Paradigm Shifter has completed The Oracle!
51 960 BC You have discovered Civil Service!

I got BW & fishing from a hut.

It was quick speed so would be earlier on slower speeds I expect.

EDIT: Looks like I teched Monarchy while waiting for the Oracle to finish too. And 3 turns of revolution. Playing as Pacal.


EDIT2: Here's one at Monarch/Quick, with Peter in a OCC space gauntlet

Turn Date Event
0 4000 BC Moscow has been founded.
5 3700 BC You have discovered Agriculture!
Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!
8 3520 BC You have discovered Bronze Working!
10 3400 BC Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!
11 3340 BC You have discovered Archery!
12 3280 BC You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
20 2800 BC You have discovered Writing!
22 2680 BC The revolution has begun!!!
Paradigm Shifter adopts Slavery!
25 2500 BC You have discovered Mysticism!
28 2320 BC You have discovered Masonry!
30 2200 BC Montezuma adopts Slavery!
32 2080 BC You have discovered Polytheism!
Plato (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Paradigm Shifter)!
33 2020 BC You have discovered Priesthood!
41 1540 BC Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!
42 1480 BC Confucianism has been founded in Moscow!
You have discovered Code of Laws!
Judaism has been founded in a distant land!
43 1420 BC Nicolaus Copernicus (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Paradigm Shifter)!
47 1180 BC You have discovered Mathematics!
Paradigm Shifter has completed The Oracle!
48 1120 BC You have discovered Civil Service!
The revolution has begun!!!
Paradigm Shifter adopts Bureaucracy!

I don't normally get archery that early, must have been worried about barbs or neighbours. Switched to slavery to whip a library. First GS was an academy, 2nd settled.
 
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I never play at quick (and in fact never play normal) so I suspect you may be wrong about being able to do it faster at slower speeds. The only way I can imagine researching CoL early enough to grab CS with the Oracle (above prince) is to have gold/silver/gems in the capital bfc (at the speeds I play). A lot of the general rules about how much progress at what dates don't translate that well into slower speeds: one can easily have a great setup and only be generating 70-80 bpt at 1AD on marathon. (Assuming emperor + and a reasonably big land grab)

I'd also point out that you still have two high beaker count techs to research before you get maces in either of those games (MC and Machinery). Both of those are bigger techs than anything you've researched in either of those games. So as fast as your tech rate is in those games, it would not shock me to discover that maces didn't come until around 100AD in either, even if you prioritized them. You also don't look like you're producing GMs or GEs, which you'd need to bulb them.

But of course, years simply don't translate at all between marathon and quick. (Or marathon and any other level for that matter) And they really don't translate very well between epic and quick either.

Before you call maces at 100CE slow on monarch/marathon, play a game with those settings and get them earlier (and with enough cities to make them count for something). With a little luck, and more skill than I possess, I am sure 1CE is possible, and maybe a little sooner. But 100CE is early enough to have them win the game for you, if you are properly aggressive with them. (of course, playing quick games they'll be obsolete before they get to the enemy anyway, so military development is just moot)
 

vicawoo

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Feb 12, 2007
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Were these two city builds?

I remember you can bulb civil service with merchants, but it's tricky.
 

iggymnrr

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Prophets can also bulb CS. Kind of like philo civs for my always war games--theocracy. Have gotten CS via prophet bulb with out trying for it. (Wasn't aiming for it, just stumbled onto it.)
 

Grashopa

Emperor
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May 16, 2009
Messages
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My first immortal university game here was immortal/normal oracle CS in at 950 BC with macemen at 250 BC. You need a GS for an academy and after that get up to 70 to 80 bpt to get machinery. That game was 4 flood plains: 3 cottages and a farm, which is all you need to try for oracle-CS. Well and the right starting techs. 2nd and 3rd cities don't need to do much, that game my 2nd city 1pop'd the Great Lighthouse off a forested plains hill with some chops :)
 
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At immortal, I am guessing you managed to trade for some tech (MC perhaps) too, probably? And I wouldn't call building the glh "not doing much" in a second city. Any time you get maces vs archers (which I am guessing you did in that game) you got maces really early.

And bulbing CS with a merchant isn't that hard...you just need to have Monarchy, Currency, Alphabet and Sailing first. (All of which are worth having before maces, assuming you want to get real use from them)
 

ParadigmShifter

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I never play at quick (and in fact never play normal) so I suspect you may be wrong about being able to do it faster at slower speeds. The only way I can imagine researching CoL early enough to grab CS with the Oracle (above prince) is to have gold/silver/gems in the capital bfc (at the speeds I play). A lot of the general rules about how much progress at what dates don't translate that well into slower speeds: one can easily have a great setup and only be generating 70-80 bpt at 1AD on marathon. (Assuming emperor + and a reasonably big land grab)

I'd also point out that you still have two high beaker count techs to research before you get maces in either of those games (MC and Machinery). Both of those are bigger techs than anything you've researched in either of those games. So as fast as your tech rate is in those games, it would not shock me to discover that maces didn't come until around 100AD in either, even if you prioritized them. You also don't look like you're producing GMs or GEs, which you'd need to bulb them.

But of course, years simply don't translate at all between marathon and quick. (Or marathon and any other level for that matter) And they really don't translate very well between epic and quick either.

Before you call maces at 100CE slow on monarch/marathon, play a game with those settings and get them earlier (and with enough cities to make them count for something). With a little luck, and more skill than I possess, I am sure 1CE is possible, and maybe a little sooner. But 100CE is early enough to have them win the game for you, if you are properly aggressive with them. (of course, playing quick games they'll be obsolete before they get to the enemy anyway, so military development is just moot)

Nothing special about my land in the Pacal game (yes, I play HoF but no, I don't use MapFinder ;)). I just played the first map I rolled.

It was an Oasis map so floodplains though



1000BC - one turn before completing Oracle



Capital at 1000BC



I'm pretty sure tech rate isn't much affected by game speed, in fact probably slower due to settlers moving slower relative to other speeds.

I couldn't open my initial Peter save because assets have changed since then and it's a lock modified assets game.

Even with expensive techs, you are running bureaucracy now ;) However with metal casting and a forge for bulbing that could take a while.

If I get time I may try and see how fast I can get macemen on Emperor using Oracle CS.
 
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tech rate does scale to game speed, but that means a 6x difference between quick and marathon. So however long your initial research time on CoL was, you can multiply those turns by 6. And then again for researching MC and Machinery. It's rarely a good idea to spend 50 turns (even on marathon) researching a tech, except when absolutely necessary (early IW when surrounded by jungle often takes that long). So researching things like Currency, Alpha and Monarchy, while not absolutely essential to getting maces, pay off better because their increased :science: allows for the later techs to be researched faster, not to mention bulbing CS, and the ability to use them as trade bait.
 

ParadigmShifter

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Ain't it 4.5 times beakers instead of 6 on quick vs. marathon? (3 * 3/2)?

If it's 4.5 times we are looking at around turn 225 on marathon for a CS slingshot, so that would be about 1250BC.

EDIT: Yep, it's 4.5.

Quick has tech cost 2/3rds that of normal, whilst Marathon has tech costs 3x normal, so 3 * ( 1 / (2/3) ) = 4.5
 
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I thought quick was 1/2 of normal...I stand corrected. The point stands though...marathon is a fundamentally different game than quick. On quick, your method makes more sense. Try it on marathon, and you might discover some very strange things about how much speed affects gameplay...it's not just scaled. I did a test on quick (using Pacal) and your approach works very well there, and it is even possible to get 6-7 cities up amidst other civs while doing it. I actually started using mine, but between the glh and five coastal cities I was going to straight research CS/MC/Machinery by about 100BCE, before popping a GM. (Oracled CoL while researching monarchy)

I can assure you...the game plays so much differently as to make comparisons of methods that work at quick to those which work on marathon based on year just idiotic.
 
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