Macemen?

[benjai]

I've just finished a war on prince level against germany and nabbed 3 of his cities before I got tired. Units to my disposal were musketmen (only got gunpowder 1/3 of the way into the war), knights, war elephants, spearmen, longbowmen, catapults, and macemen. Germany had mainly musketmen (right from the start of the war!), knights, horse archers, catapults, and pikemen/longbowmen combos in the cities.

This was quite intersting. I had vassalage/theo and barracks so 2 promos off the bat. My knights could hence get +10% str, then +25% against gunpowder, slice up the muskets and get one more promo. They were pretty useless against the pikemen in the cities though. Same for elephants, useless against cities, too slow to catch their mounted units, and not as good as having muskets. My musketmen were decent but not as good as I thought and were not really up against their longbowmen (esp as one city was on a hill!!). The promos were not particularly good for offense either. Leaving me with macemen! I had built a bunch of other units above already with not much success until I tried building one of these. With 2 city raider promos, they were level if not better than muskets/longbow/pikemen!

So, upon reflecting, I think I should have built knights to counter everything outside cities, one musket per city I'm attacking to defend it after taking over, catapults to bombard, and lots of macemen! Oh, also a few spearman scattered around hills/forests to take out enemy knights. Any comments?

 

[carn]

Just that the muskets would ignore walls, but still would have to face cultural bonus.
Therefore maceman with city raider would still be better.

Carn

 

[mboza]

Also, macemen with City raider can be upgraded to grenadiers with city raider, and onwards, making them very effective at taking riflemen defended cities.

And city raiding Roman Pretorians are equivalent to macemen when the defends are not melee units (ie archers, longbowmen, musketmen..)

 

[shadow2k]

Maceman make up the large majority of my attacking force during that time period. Their only real counter at that time is a X-bow, which are pretty rare, and knights I guess, so you have a couple pikes with you.

The reason I love them is that they upgrade into Rifles and Grenadiers, which really rip up Rifle defended cities (as opposed to cavs) when you have City Raider promotions on them. They are really the only unit at the time that can get CR, except for Pikes. I prefer those upgraded Rifles/Grens to Cavs in every situation, except for Cossacks.

Phants are not as useful as pikes at that time, they are an ancient age unit. They are the same as pikes vs mounted, but lose defensive bonuses. Pikes can be countered by melee, so having a Phant or two along won't hurt.

I'm just not a big fan of any of the mounted units, except for Cossacks. Mainly because you need artillery to make them useful, which takes away their bonus movement, and they can't get City Raider. I bring a couple along for pillaging and strays, but other than that...I ignore mounted units almost entirely. You need a tech lead to make good use of them, and you won't get that often on higher levels. War Chariots can be good too, but I often ignore them in favor of Axes to upgrade to Maces.

I often don't even build any mounted unit...ever.

 

[punchandpie]

The reason I love them is that they upgrade into Rifles and Grenadiers, which really rip up Rifle defended cities (as opposed to cavs) when you have City Raider promotions on them. They are really the only unit at the time that can get CR, except for Pikes. I prefer those upgraded Rifles/Grens to Cavs in every situation, except for Cossacks.

I agree with you, Macemen in that time frame are the best units to produce. I try to make a beeline for them as soon as i got a religon. Especially if 1 or 2 civs have me hemmed in and I can't expand anymore. And the fact they can upgrade to Riflemen and Grenadiers makes one of the most flexiable units in the game.

I'm just not a big fan of any of the mounted units, except for Cossacks.

Mounted units do have there use though, your right about them not being effective against cities without cannons to help. But I find that stacks of 3 or 4 make effective boarder guards, either against barbs or other civs if you are at war. Especially to protect resources in your territory.

 

[benjai]

can grenadiers get city raider normally or do you have to go via macemen?

 

[punchandpie]

can grenadiers get city raider normally or do you have to go via macemen?

I about 80% sure u can get the promo as grenadier, but I am not totally sure since I never build any because I have stacks and stacks of macemen to work with.

 

[Grogs]

can grenadiers get city raider normally or do you have to go via macemen?

You have to upgrade them. Only melee, siege, and armored units can get City Raider.

If I'm going for domination/conquest, I love upgrading all my city raider old macemen to rifles/grenadiers/infantry. They usually do a pretty good job of slicing through city defenses until tanks come along. I find it rather odd that, if you don't upgrade those units, your best 'city raiders' in that era are cannons/artillery.

 

[BLOODYBATTLEBRA]

samurai replace maceman right?


So Japan could actually be useful? They seem to get run down in all my games, and I don't much ike Tokugawa's traits, so haven't played as them yet.

 

[benjai]

You have to upgrade them. Only melee, siege, and armored units can get City Raider.

If I'm going for domination/conquest, I love upgrading all my city raider old macemen to rifles/grenadiers/infantry. They usually do a pretty good job of slicing through city defenses until tanks come along. I find it rather odd that, if you don't upgrade those units, your best 'city raiders' in that era are cannons/artillery.

hmm...gunpowder units with city raider seems quite lethal..esp considering the ignore city walls bonus...damn I should have built more macemen!!

 

[Wodan]

samurai replace maceman right?

So Japan could actually be useful? They seem to get run down in all my games, and I don't much ike Tokugawa's traits, so haven't played as them yet.

I've been considering (in my quest to explore the Commando skill) using Japan.

(The goal is to use an aggressive Civ to get the free Combat I. Can't use horse units because they don't get it free. And, can't use Napoleon because you can't upgrade to Musketeers. Would be nice to have a 2 move unit. But, I'm thinking a melee unit would be just as good... think about it, you can move and pillage in the same turn, every turn. Plus, with Samurai first strike, would be tasty. Anyway, that's probably my next game, to explore that.

Wodan

 

[Screw Flanders]

Ive gotten a couple of tanks the commando before--if you can actually get the unit there its sick--you can take out all their resources in like 3-4 turns, and the unit has combat 4 so its not exactly a pushover. If you get more than 1 the ai sometimes wont even attack them.

 

[Wodan]

Ive gotten a couple of tanks the commando before--if you can actually get the unit there its sick--you can take out all their resources in like 3-4 turns, and the unit has combat 4 so its not exactly a pushover. If you get more than 1 the ai sometimes wont even attack them.

Yeah, my current game I'm trying it as Ghengis. I've got... 7 Keshiks all with Commando. I just declared war against Saladin because he hasn't been in a war yet, and by golly he needs to!

Plus, Catherine is my girlfriend and she's between me and him. I tossed her Civil Service and she was glad to join in.

Anyway the goal there is to get Saladin and Catherine fighting, while my Keshiks roam around pouncing on stuff. I have the option to upgrade my Kesiks to knights (Saladin has Camel Archers) but they're smack in the middle of the experience jump... about 30-32XP each. Once each gets to 37 -or- Saladin starts hitting them, I'm going to upgrade. I don't want to do it before then, because they'll lose all that XP.

Surprised me, though, he had a Camel Archer walk right past my Keshiks on its way to Russia, and didn't even attack them. I guess the Combat IV has him intimidated.

Wodan

 

[Screw Flanders]

Heh I am actually playing an always war game with the mongols on a lakes/rocky map--had a couple (3) of keshiks that made commando and didnt want to upgrade them cause I'd lose the xp--got one up to 50 (a first) but eventually the other two got killed in their mid 30's when macemen came around. But the upgraded knight with blitz, commando, and march was the hands down evillest unit I ever created. I even used him to kill a couple of weak neighbor cities singlehanded. They wouldnt attack it either, still have it (its a cavalry now and since the AI is throwing stacks of 20 at me every 4-5 turns its xp is back up to 55). They seem to not attack when odds are greater than 95% unless they just have an overwhelming majority, even if you are next to a city.

 

[Wodan]

They seem to not attack when odds are greater than 95% unless they just have an overwhelming majority, even if you are next to a city.

I agree. My Keshiks just walked through Saladin's empire, pillaging to beat all. Saladin didn't attack, even though he had Camel Archers. He only had Spearmen, not Pikemen, or that might be different. Anyway, I didn't even fight a single one of his units... I pillaged probably 25-30 villages and he sued for peace. Commando is nice, now that I'm using it.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

ps Got peace with Saladin and upgraded my Commando Keshiks to Knights. I don't think anybody'll touch them even with Pikemen. Kind of itching to go to another war again. Since I'm Genghis, I get the feeling that itch might get scratched soon.

Wodan

 

[bahman]

What you need is catapult with the right promption, I mean the highest collateral damage. You can then save most other valuabale units and pormpt them more.

 

[Screw Flanders]

Just make sure ya protect them--send em in in pairs if ya can cause its hard to get that promo again until armor. I finally stopped my game as there was no way the AI could win. The only downside is you wind up upgrading the knights to gunship eventually and commando doesnt work, but I'll tell ya gunship with combat 4, march, and blitz is a hell of a unit especially if they have cav/riflemen/grenadiers

 

[rickmc]

Why do maceman end access to preatorians?
Both have stregth of 8 but maceman lose the +50% city attack.

 

[Artanis]

Why do maceman end access to preatorians?
Both have stregth of 8 but maceman lose the +50% city attack.

AFAIK, Praetorians do NOT come with +50% city attack, but instead must promote City Raider to get it. Since Macemen can promote City Raider just like Praetorians, that means that Macemen, with their +50% vs. Melee, are outright stronger than Praetorians. Maybe not 25 Hammers stronger, but still stronger.