Machine Assisted Free Will too OP?

[The Naug]

Machine Assisted Free Will is an unlockable wonder from the artifact system. It decreases the cost of all techs by 30% once built.

I've been think about this since I saw it the first time during one of my playthroughs and I cannot see this as anything as an autowin button every time I manage to get it. Reducing the cost of all techs by 30% is like increasing science production by ~43%. Globally. For the rest of the game. Compare THAT to the Cynosure I just can't envision a scenario where I would lose the game if I got this early.

This seems just way too strong. Come to think of it many things you get from the artifact system just oozes of power creep considering the old virtues and wonders were left completely unchanged.

What do you guys think about this wonder? I think its existence is bad for the game as a whole.

 

[Ryika]

The wonder is...

...overpowered
...way too cheap (100 production)
...only available via rng
...meant to be rare, but isn't really that rare (not that "rare but completely broken" would be a good thing)
...not interesting. It's a flat reduction that doesn't allow for any specific strategies.

Whoever designed that thing... I don't even know what to say about that person. It's gamebreakingly good and uninteresting at the same time.

Overall I think rare wonders from Ruins should do very specific things. Make this wonder "Technologies that unlock Buildings with a Local Resource Requirement cost 30% less" (<- A random, not meant to be balanced idea just to have an effect that shakes things up by a lot - no idea how many technologies have such resource buildings.) or something, give it a healthy production cost and there you go. A wonder that is not just there to make you win 10 turns quicker than you should, but instead that changes your situation where suddenly the tech-path that you had envisioned may not be the optimal route anymore, because that wonder has made new options available for you.

 

[Lucius_]

Sounds OP to me. Four games in though and I have yet to get that wonder, even prioritizing progenitor expeditions.

 

[Alkaid]

Yes, the devs were smoking something when they ok'd putting that in. There's just no logical reason to have it other than total design oversight. It feels like I'm cheating when I get that in a game. Even though it's supposed to be like the crown jewel of rare artifact wonders, it doesn't excuse it. It doesn't matter how rare it's meant to be, something with an effect that insane just shouldn't be in the game. At least as Ryika said, not in that big flat bonus capacity. It literally just makes you win faster in general by getting it.

There are others artifact rewards that are very OP, such as the 100% virtue cost reduction and the 20% military unit production, but even those pale in comparison. There's a number of seemingly obvious, hugely unbalanced things in RT that don't make sense to have been allowed, but artifact wonder probably has the #1 spot.

Sounds OP to me. Four games in though and I have yet to get that wonder, even prioritizing progenitor expeditions.

Just so you know you can still get it by mixing artifact types. I've gotten it even with just 1 progenitor artifact and 2 non-progenitor ones. So it's been rare but still not as are as it seems intended to have been.

 

[aguliondew]

Only found that Machine Assisted will 1/5 games, Drone command 2/5, Warp spire 2/5, Quantum Politic 1/5. I did not know that some artifact have preferred awards. The first game I did not save up my artifacts like I have been doing lately. The progenitor ruins have been very rare in my games.

 

[Amrunril]

The answer is yes, Machine Assisted Free Will is, without question, obscenely overpowered.

The wonder is...
...way too cheap (100 production)

I'm not sure there's any cost at which this would be both balanced and possible to build in a normal game, but I think there's a broader point here about progenitor artifact wonders. They don't actually feel like wonders. If they're going to be called wonders, they should act like them, costing large amounts of production and generating diplomatic capital. If they're not going to act like wonders, they should just be global bonuses, like those for mixed sets of artifacts.

This may not be as game changing an issue as the artifact wonders' current state of balance, but it is very odd from an aesthetic/design perspective.

 

[Olodune]

I understand the desire to add rare and game changing effects to some degree - but this is not a fun way to do it. For me it breaks immersion. It's like Vhailor's Helm in Baldur's Gate II - so strong that it feels like cheating.

I've had this or Quantum Politics (100% Virtue Speed) in half my games so far. Both in one game. Not exactly as rare as a Fountain of Youth Spain start.

I think it should be -10% tech cost OR -15% tech cost and -15% population growth: still hugely impactful and a thrill to find. There should also be more flavor text or a splash screen when building it. A missed chance for a story.

 

[MadDjinn]

the 'cost to build' is somewhat abstracted by the fact that you have to find the ruins and still manage to get the artifacts.

sure, 100 production is probably low though, but an increase in the cost isn't really going to change it.

Also, if the math side of the tech reduction is like the Quantum Politics one, then what they're doing is reducing the base cost of the techs and then following up with other modifiers. A very simple adjustment that makes it less powerful would be to mix it in with the other modifiers. That would reduce it from an additive/subtractive bonus to a multiplier/divider type bonus.

Ie, the QP wonder reduced my virtue cost from 1500+ to 500+ once built. That's a nice 2/3 reduction with the rate of increase of future virtues barely changing the number. If it tied into the other multiplers, it would have been closer to a 1/2-1/3 reduction.

Either way, yeah, it would possibly be a nicer bonus without being OP if it tied into something more specific.

 

[Lord Shadow]

I'd make it reduce tech cost by no more than 10% and require exclusively three high-quality Precursor artifacts to unlock. And a suitable production cost, of course.

I mean, it's not even a Wonder in the conceptual sense of the word. Wonders you compete for. This is just a unique, permanent bonus you get, only delayed.

 

[Galgus]

The wonder is...

...overpowered
...way too cheap (100 production)
...only available via rng
...meant to be rare, but isn't really that rare (not that "rare but completely broken" would be a good thing)
...not interesting. It's a flat reduction that doesn't allow for any specific strategies.

Whoever designed that thing... I don't even know what to say about that person. It's gamebreakingly good and uninteresting at the same time.

Overall I think rare wonders from Ruins should do very specific things. Make this wonder "Technologies that unlock Buildings with a Local Resource Requirement cost 30% less" (<- A random, not meant to be balanced idea just to have an effect that shakes things up by a lot - no idea how many technologies have such resource buildings.) or something, give it a healthy production cost and there you go. A wonder that is not just there to make you win 10 turns quicker than you should, but instead that changes your situation where suddenly the tech-path that you had envisioned may not be the optimal route anymore, because that wonder has made new options available for you.

Agreed, and Quantum Politics is similar in all regards.

 

[Amrunril]

the 'cost to build' is somewhat abstracted by the fact that you have to find the ruins and still manage to get the artifacts.

That's probably the reasoning, but I guess I just don't see the point in having a cost that low. If the production cost is meant to be serious barrier, then it should be a serious barrier, at least on par with early/mid game wonder costs (and in this case the wonder should probably act as a wonder in other ways as well, such as capital generation and AI reactions). If collecting the artifacts is meant to be the real barrier, there's really no point in making players go through the formality of spending a few turns' production.

 

[MadDjinn]

That's probably the reasoning, but I guess I just don't see the point in having a cost that low. If the production cost is meant to be serious barrier, then it should be a serious barrier, at least on par with early/mid game wonder costs (and in this case the wonder should probably act as a wonder in other ways as well, such as capital generation and AI reactions). If collecting the artifacts is meant to be the real barrier, there's really no point in making players go through the formality of spending a few turns' production.

On that point it differentiates the 'wonder' effects from the generic 'always on' effects.

You can remove the wonder from an opponent by taking their city.

 

[Red Menace]

can these things only be built once like wonders? if so than that makes the Progenitor benefits extremely limited in Multi-player, I'm assuming it removes these from the list of rewards because it would be vary un-fair to give the same reward twice if someone cashes in and they cant build their special wonder.

of course in Multi-player everyone should be artifact hunting so its unlikely to run out of rewards.

 

[rtfox68]

last 3 games Progenter ruins did not produce artifacts

 

[Lucius_]

can these things only be built once like wonders? if so than that makes the Progenitor benefits extremely limited in Multi-player, I'm assuming it removes these from the list of rewards because it would be vary un-fair to give the same reward twice if someone cashes in and they cant build their special wonder.

of course in Multi-player everyone should be artifact hunting so its unlikely to run out of rewards.

I read in another thread that these are essentially national wonders, one per player. Also once you get it once, you won't get it again, even with the same exact artifact pieces. You will get a generic option the 2nd time, like Xenomass bathhouse etc.

 

[Ryika]

can these things only be built once like wonders? if so than that makes the Progenitor benefits extremely limited in Multi-player, I'm assuming it removes these from the list of rewards because it would be vary un-fair to give the same reward twice if someone cashes in and they cant build their special wonder.

of course in Multi-player everyone should be artifact hunting so its unlikely to run out of rewards.

No, the "wonders" are National Wonders and can be built once per Player.

 

[Acken]

I got it twice in 3 games and everytime I get a good chuckle. Pretty symptomatic of the importance of balance in civBE in general.

This and QP are just stupid. I can't even believe someone thought it a good idea.

 

[cazaderonus]

Hell... And i thought drone command was already massively OP. Lol.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

I think that the whole artifact system needs a rework with the strongest artifact bonuses requiring 3 pristine Progenitor artifacts and significantly weaker versions of the same bonuses for the same combos with lower quality.

 

[Alkaid]

On that point it differentiates the 'wonder' effects from the generic 'always on' effects.

You can remove the wonder from an opponent by taking their city.

I just want to add that you can rebuild the wonder in a new city if you lose the city you built it in. (I was messing around trying to get as many artifacts in a game as possible to test combos and lost my capital to Al Falah that had MA in it) I assume since it's basically a national wonder. With such low cost, it takes very little effort to regain the effect by building it in a new city then.