Machine guns to mech infantry seriouly?!

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by fuzzatron717, Jun 29, 2012.

  1. Gaizokubanou

    Gaizokubanou Warlord

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    Or just refund the xp and let us pick the melee unit appropriate promotions would work too.
     
  2. S.K. Ren

    S.K. Ren Prince

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    A fully promoted Machine gun serves it's purpose best defending a city. By the time you Get Mech Infantry, you should also have Rocket Artillery. Just retire your Machine guns to your border cities and roll out vit ze missiles!
     
  3. Peacemongerer

    Peacemongerer Prince

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    Maybe just make a generic option that you can go to a city with a barracks and for maybe 25 or 50 gold you can get an xp refund at any time so you can re-promote your units with new upgrades. This might suck if u have a unit like the Horse Archer or the Swedish unit who has march innately, but exemptions could perhaps be made like pick 1 free promotion, then give ones based on xp or something.

    Or just make it so that the accuracy 1 promotion automatically converts to shock 1, barrage to drill, logistics to blitz, and so on. What the +1 range would translate to would be tricky, but doable.
     
  4. aluelkdf

    aluelkdf Prince

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    Maybe they could have a mechanized MG unit. A light armored vehicle with MG's mounted on it, like how they mount MG's on Humvees. They should be have quick movement, and should be capable of withdrawing after a ranged attack (but still be a strong defensive unit if you choose to use it that way).

    To me this is a more logical way of promoting the MG than having it turn into mech infantry.
     
  5. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    Well I think the "upgrade to helicopters and make helicopters a 1-range unit" is a non-starter for 3 reasons. 1) It would be insanely broken. Having that much movement along with ignoring terrain and high base strength and high ranged strength and being able to bombard without taking damage back and possibly still getting a bonus against tanks would be insane. 2) If you address that problem by making them fragile, you're putting a second 180° shift into the upgrade line. It would go fragile - fragile - fragile - insanely beefy - insanely beefy - fragile (also, can't fortify). Not gamebreaking, but changing the line to having a high combat strength just to change it back again later would be weird. 3) It would screw with the upgrade path. So we save the ranged line from ending up with useless promotions, by making the spearman-antitank line end with useless promotions. You could add another unit for anti-tanks to upgrade into, but why not keep that as it is and find a more suitable unit for machine guns to upgrade into?

    This isn't even accounting for the fact that they serve very different roles in-game (fast tank killer vs. slow entrenched slugger) and in the real world. All that taken into account, I'd much rather see another solution implemented. I don't know what the best idea would be, since it would be weird if vehicle-mounted MGs could fortify, and if not, they lose a big part of the late ranged line's power – being able to fortify, take a hit, and then fire back with impunity. But mortar teams have the same problem. They're not exactly the kind that takes point in any formation.

    Oh, I know! Let's make them upgrade to Giant Death Robots! Modern Armor can be taken off that upgrade path fine, and then we can give GDR a 1-range bombard! Great solution! :lol:
     
  6. Winston

    Winston Warlord

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    Machine guns haven't really been superceded though, they are still in use throughout armed forces today and logically if they were to be upgraded they probably should upgrade to mech infantry, even if that creates gameplay issues. Mech infantry will have machine guns among a range of other weapons and it seems daft to have two separate mech infantry units.
    The reason I suggested the near future weapons platform is because it will probably be the next evolution from machine guns - these new weapons platforms do not jam and they can literally fire a million rounds a minute if necessary. And it is something distinct from mech infantry

    There is actually another discrepancy in the ranged unit line in that it doesnt have anything for the renaissance era. Before long, I'm sure a modder will fill in these gaps
     
  7. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Won me over.
     
  8. Winston

    Winston Warlord

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    hmmm has anyone checked the link I posted on here? IMO this would be the most appropriate upgrade outside of mech infantry (helicopters - no, rocket artillery - no)
    check it out, you'll see what I mean when you do
     
  9. laotze

    laotze Chieftain

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    I think we need something to counter late game air attacks so why not upgrade the Machine Gun into AA Machine Gun, which gives a strength boost and a mediocre ability to intercept nearby aircrafts. The AA Machine Gun would then become the jack of all trades AA/AG denfensive unit in late game while the original AA Gun can be changed into something like Flak Cannons and functions as a more specialize AA unit.

    For the lancer line, I think the AT-gun should be changed into a fast unit like the Tank Destroyer / Assault Gun. Current the AT-gun is so slow that I don't bother upgrading my lancers unless I have researched all the way to get Gunships.
     
  10. PibbZ

    PibbZ Paladin

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    I had the exact same experience with Civ3 and 4!

    Vanilla Civ3 was decent, Play the World improved a lot, and Conquests brought a polished product to the table.

    Same story in Civ4. Vanilla was okay but full of issues. Warlords was better, but still had some major flaws in it, and BTS perfected it all.

    I don't see why Civ 5 would be any different. As a matter of fact, I told my mates this pre vanilla launch, and the theory seems to come true :king:
     
  11. turkeypotpie

    turkeypotpie Chieftain

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    There is only one solution: minigun troops!

    Or minigun troops that shoot lasers. Now that would be awesome!
     
  12. LetMyPeopleGo

    LetMyPeopleGo Prince

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    I think it's a good idea, add to it Rocket propelled grenade or shoulder-launched missile or man-portable missile of the anti-personnel fire kind, there are so many to use as ranged weapons, why a dead end to the cheap ranged units?
     
  13. kgoodrid

    kgoodrid Warlord

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    I would like to see upgrade paths that make more sense. It really is annoying to invest so much time and effort into a unit's upgrades, only to have them become useless.

    Great example is the Hun Horse Archer. I kept them as Horse Archers until people started running gun powder units. At that point, they were just not as effective anymore. I would have killed for some kind of upgrade that kept them in their same role. I think that should be the case for all units. Basically, we need distinct lines:

    1) Melee Infantry (Warrior -> Modern Infantry)
    2) Ranged Infantry (Archer -> Machine Gun (or Mech Infantry with range)
    3) Melee Cavalry (Horseman -> Modern Armor)
    4) Ranged Cavalry (Chariot / Horse Archer -> Gunship)
    5) Artillery

    This would keep each upgrade path viable throughout the game. It also makes sense from a historical perspective. Just look at the modern 'cavalry.' Units of that lineage use tanks and helicopters today. The melee cavalry would evolve into modern assaults units like Modern Armor. The ranged cavalry would evolve into modern scouting / skirmish forces like gunships.
     
  14. Winston

    Winston Warlord

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    The thing about mortar crews, bazookas, snipers etc is that you don't see divisions of these by themselves, they are incorporated as support weapons within infantry divisions.

    This is why machine guns upgrade to mech infantry IMO -it makes sense from a history perspective but gameplay wise there needs to be some compensation for switching - there is actually a mod that converts ranged promos into melee equivalents so that should be a quick fix
     
  15. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

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    Why are these promotions separated in the first place? They do practically the same things. They're not 100% the same, but if they were, nobody would blink.

    That would make the only promotion that can't cross over be the +1 range, which is unfortunate, but hardly a big deal.
     
  16. Aurelius321

    Aurelius321 Warlord

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    I think with Bombers, Fighters, Artillery, and Mobile Artillery (can't remember the name perfectly) that the era has plenty of ranged combat possibilities.
     
  17. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    I'd not particularly like mortar crews instead of/as an upgrade for MGs. I like the beefy, front-line, 1-range units. And mortar crews would likely be back to the archer model of 2-range squishies. Maybe a better compromise would be to make MI ranged and find a suitable new unit for Infantry to upgrade into. Anyone with some knowledge of modern military technology and tactics help me out? Or is it pretty much all infantry with mechanized deployment/support?
     
  18. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    I'm not convinced about the need for a ranged cavalry line of upgrades. Doesn't make much sense historically as relatively few nations ever employed them, and a LOT of new game units would need to be added - probably more than would be used. Just let chariot archers upgrade to composite archers/xbows rather than knights.

    I think a better dichotomy would be between heavy and light cavalry. Heavy cavalry would have 3 movements, as strong (if not slightly more) than infantry of the same period and move after attack. Light cavalry would have 4 movements, ~3/4 of the strength of heavy cavalry, move after attacking, and have a bonus towards ranged/siege units.

    Thus, heavy cavalry would be a powerful unit in smashing enemy lines, but not essential. Light cavalry would be a counter to ranged units and a useful scout; and almost necessary even in an army which focuses heavily on infantry.

    Upgrade paths could be:
    Knight->Cavalry->Landship->Tank->Modern Armour
    Horseman->Lancer-> ???(1) -> ????(2) ->Helicopter
    Chariot archer -> crossbow -> . . .


    Civs which have a horseman UU which is effectively heavy cavalry (like Carthage or Byzantium) could simply have it upgrade to a knight rather than a lancer. Also, scout could upgrade to horseman, as scouts very quickly become mounted.

    Slightly lost as to what (1) and (2) could be. Perhaps dragoon and armoured car respectively? Or maybe light cavalry and recon? Would also like to rename the very generic Cavalry to something like Cuirassier to highlight than they are heavy cavalry.
     

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