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MADDJINN GAMES, AI problems

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by jokii, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. Aeson

    Aeson orangesoda Retired Moderator

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    It should be relatively simple assuming you already have the pathfinding working right. Find the units within X tiles, check if any of them are melee. Check any melee that are found for enough movement. If it's within range, attempt to find a valid path. (This is all more computationally intensive because of road movement bonuses. You end up checking much further out than is possible to move in most cases.) If no matches are found move the ranged units out.

    Where to move them isn't simple though. Do you move them out to wait for the melee unit coming along the road ... or do you send them to another target ... where it's safe to move and where it isn't ... lots of things to consider.

    Of course none of that really solves the issue, since you're still left with an AI that can't take cities. In a perverse way, it's actually made it harder because now you have more surviving ranged units to get in the way of the melee units trying to make their way to the front. It just makes the pathfinding that much harder.
     
  2. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

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    Question is, behind whom? Which game as sandboxy and complex as Civilization has better AI nowadays?
     
  3. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    I'm thinking it's just 'in general'.

    computational intelligence has made leaps and bounds in the last 10ish years, but not so much the gaming industry.

    at least not for the TBS type games, mainly, wrt to the planning and interaction side.

    The gaming industry has done a lot of behavioural AI, but that's mainly for the graphics side (character movements simulating human movements more naturally, both for movement and for speech).
     
  4. The_Reckoning

    The_Reckoning Prince

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    Look at this:

    http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/sid-meiers-civilization-v/credits

    Consider that they have no person with programming AI as their only job.

    Consider that they have paid ~30 people to work on the art for the game versus ~1 to work on the AI.

    That's where their priorities are. And who can blame them? How many people buy a game because they hear "the AI is good" versus "it looks cool"?
     
  5. gunnergoz

    gunnergoz Cat Herder

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    Firaxis has yet to disappoint me in the way many other design houses have over the years - some very recently. Firaxis games are not flawless, but they do stick with a project and improve it over time. I sense their connection with their fans and their desire to please as many as possible and to disappoint as few as necessary.

    If the AI is where it is, it is probably because it has been taken as far as is possible within the Firaxis gaming budget. Perhaps the Pentagon can pump tons of money into strategic games that train its leaders using superior AI's, but so far I've not heard of any breakthrough military grade simulations using such a supposedly superior AI as people seem to think commercial game firms can produce.

    It is a lot easier to complain about an AI than to write one that works as well as people think they should work. If I insisted upon only playing against a truly superior gaming opponent, I would play MP.
     
  6. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    If modders can fix issues with the AI with no budget at all and poor-at-best access to the code, Firaxis could fix at least some of the more glaring ones themselves. They ditched supporting Brave New World way too early for my taste.
     
  7. gunnergoz

    gunnergoz Cat Herder

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    I've played Civ V with any number of mods and even those mods claiming improved AI have yet to really demonstrate it to me in 2000+ hours of play.
     
  8. omniclast

    omniclast Prince

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    Is Apollo the highest difficulty AI?
     
  9. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

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    For the moment, yes.
     
  10. Miravlix

    Miravlix King

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    No idea what you're ranting about, since it has nothing to do with what I said.

    All I said was "chill, we will either see AI improvements in the final release or in a patch, compared to the latest LP behavior".

    If the OP had actually talked about something else than clearly bugged behavior (Documented multiple times by devs saying unit should move and shoot, etc.), then I wouldn't have bothered, but since the OP can't tell the difference between "Working as Intended" and "Something is bugged", I feel my response is very appropriate.
     
  11. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    You should play Smart AI and notice that the AI can actually move an archer and shoot with it on the same turn. It took me a while to notice, but now that I've seen that the AI can't move a ranged unit and shoot with it (except when it's moving into a city for some reason) it's difficult to unsee it.

    The main reason that AI mods don't tend to be massively effective is that Firaxis hasn't done AI modders many favours at all. Contrast with Civ 4, where AI modders were able to do some very impressive stuff indeed.
     
  12. bc1

    bc1

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    and they have even more managers and directors :lol: How typical of the times...
     
  13. The_Reckoning

    The_Reckoning Prince

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    Try playing Civ4 vanilla and then install K-Mod, it's amazing.
     
  14. Atepa

    Atepa Chieftain

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    AI War! That's the game who's AI I was thinking of.

    And you may be right in regards to time, I just remember that games like Total War have that time delay issue for much of the same reason, I could easily see that translating into a Civ style game as well.
     
  15. Lancor

    Lancor Prince

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    I heard great things about the 64bit based engine GalCiv3 is going to use. Can anybody inform us if and how this is true?
     
  16. Aedn

    Aedn Chieftain

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    While i agree, that the BE AI will be poor, based on the LP videos, i am not sure putting in a competent AI is what gamers actually want? While some would, i expect the complaints about the game being to hard would be a massive outcry from the more casual crowd.

    Also, why should Firaxis fix the AI when they can have fans basically invest countless hours to do it for free? Modders basically invest massive man hours to fix or create variations on many of the top strategy franchises around, for zero pay, which ultimately tends to reflect on the overall quality of the titles
     
  17. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    if people complain that the game is 'too hard', they have options to reduce difficulty levels. It's not like we all play at the same level, or are forced to play the same level.

    There is difficulty level scaling for a reason, so that everyone can find a level they are comfortable with.

    So the argument that 'casuals will complain, therefore gamers can't have harder AI' is crap, at least for Firaxis titles.
     
  18. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    It's only on paper for now. Basically the idea hinted is that the game will be able to make more calculations without slowing down too much. But that's just the performance part, some guy still has to code the AI. The game is still in early beta with little AI at this stage.

    You'd have to ask someone else if you want more details though.
     
  19. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    Is the AI going to be at least somewhat better than Civ 5? I'd like to know that before I buy it. From what I read it does not sound very promising.

    The other thing I was wondering...does anyone think they'll make expansion packs and/or dlcs?
     
  20. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    yes, they're trying to make a brand new TBS-ish engine at the same time as making a game on top of it. That's fairly difficult to begin with, so we'll have to see if the engine is compromised or the game is. Maybe they'll delay the game, but I doubt that.

    The point of the new engine is that the normal game engines that get used for TBS style games are heavily modified versions of engines that really aren't that good for them.
     

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