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MADDJINN GAMES, AI problems

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by jokii, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. SupremacyKing

    SupremacyKing Prince

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    If you watch Maddjinn's LPs, you will see that the AI is able to do all the things that you need to do in a civ game. The AI is able to expand and place cities in reasonably good locations. The AI is able to build useful buildings including wonders. The AI is able to improve tiles. The AI is able to conquer other cities (We saw Brasilia take out the KP as well as take several cities from the Slavic Federation. And the AI is able to win a non-domination victory in less than 300 turns on Apollo.

    The reason the AI looks so bad is not because it can't play the game (it can) but because it can't play the game as well as a human.
     
  2. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    And that goes especially when it comes to MadDjinn. If you look at his Civ 5 LPs, everything looks so simple, but when you try it yourself, you start to notice that it actually isn't. Everything looks so simple when he plays. Believe it or not but most players aren't Deity players, far from it.
    I can see why they don't spend more of the developing money on making a better game for higher DLs. Those 2% (or was 0,2%) of the players that actually play on deity will anyway find a way to bend and tweak every aspect of the game and then complain about it regardless of what Firaxis does.
     
  3. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    If you watch them you can see the AI is Not
    1. Able to embark melee units to kill stations
    2. Able to move and shoot with naval units

    So the AI is not able to play the game if it is on islands
     
  4. Aeson

    Aeson orangesoda Retired Moderator

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    One thing to consider though is that in the gaming world that small % of players tends to be the most visible and have the most influence with the gaming communities. Get top players on YouTube having a blast playing your game and showing unique strategies/tactics to deal with a tough challenge ... and it can draw in new players and excite the existing fanbase, even those who will never try to take on that challenge themselves.

    It's a lot like sports in that regard. Most of us will never compete in professional leagues ... but those professional athletes doing crazy things against top competition can still get us excited about the games, sell tickets, and move merchandise. But if all Michael Jordan had ever done was beat up on some high school JV teams, I probably never would have spent hundreds (thousands?) of hours in the gym playing basketball.
     
  5. Fr33lanc3r

    Fr33lanc3r Chieftain

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    Unfortunately there's some grains of salt to be had with even that. Increased quantity doesn't necessarily translate to increased quality. I would honestly match the list of "First Violin" seats to that of the art team, quantity because quantity is important in that position.

    Also, AI is a weird art form, large teams don't really work for it for the simple reason of complexity. The more people you have to coordinate the more complex the system gets (intra-project communication), so with already complex systems, reducing the "team" to a few essentials is almost better than throwing exponentially more manpower at it. If the AI can be discretized then you can start throwing artist levels of people at it.

    If better AI is to be had, the system will have to be discretized so they can get more man hours under the hood of the system. Also, giving up the ghost on the idea of working with 32-bit systems would also be a boon, but they'd have to excise most of the old code from the previous systems. If Microsoft can finally pull the plug on supporting XP, I think most companies can pull the plug on 32-bit support (since even new $300 laptops run 64-bit systems, and probably could run CiV & BE). The computational gains from parallelizing the AI systems could probably free up the "real clock time" issues that we see from more complex AIs.
     
  6. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    Yeah, they do tend to make most noise, but Most of that preaching is for the choir. 45.188 people played Civ 5 according to steam when I wrote this, most of them have never visit CFC or even heard of it and are probably quite ordinary players.

    I added this angle because when you see some posts (and sometimes rant) here, it might look that it is only 2% of all the players that play anything but deity and all but 2% of the players will now be disappointed.
     
  7. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

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    I don't know about the current state of the embarking bug, but the devs have said at least a couple of times that the move-and-shoot one is fixed. Expectedly so.
     
  8. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Well it wasn't when KP Mad was in a naval war with PAC AI (of course it was made worse by the naval melee defend v. ranged bug)
     
  9. Aeson

    Aeson orangesoda Retired Moderator

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    We already know only a small percentage has beaten Deity in Civ V. So giving players harder challenges at the top end doesn't seem to be turning people off playing lower difficulties.
     
  10. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    At least we have a company that actually do listen to fans (not all companies do that), so we can only hope that they at least get all the rules of the games in function for the AI (so various units, like ships, can move and shoot) and that the game is at least challenging for the elite players as well.
     
  11. Lancor

    Lancor Prince

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    TBH in some way I always imagined when the AI does not good it is part of the simulation. Many statesmen, generals and leaders have done very stupid things in history. And not one of them was an almost allmighty, 6050 year old overlord like we, the players, are. So it's okay to do better for Immersion at least.
    It's a bit the same circumstance as I accept a warmongering Genghis Khan in my game, while a peaceful route might have been better for him. It's his fault but also his character.
     
  12. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    Thing is, though, you expect competence on the highest difficulty setting, not a bunch of bumbling Henry the Sixths.

    It would be fun if Civ 6 had the rulers be the most idiotic and ineffectual ones they could scrape out of the barrel of history at the lower difficulty levels.
     
  13. bouncymischa

    bouncymischa Synthetic Genie

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    There is the question of diminishing returns, however. If 98% of the playerbase is satisfied with the challenge level of the game as it is, why bother throwing lots of money and time at the problem of satisfying the last 2%?
     
  14. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    because if that was the model to follow, there would be no games industry. Nothing would be 'interesting' because it would be blanded out to boringness to allow anyone to 'win' and feel good.

    and well, numbers being numbers, 2% seems a might bit low for those who 'want the challenge'. It's a fun number to try to make a point, but it's pulled out of thin air and has no basis in data.
     
  15. Svetkavitsa

    Svetkavitsa Chieftain

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    ^ agree. Even if statistically only 2% of CiV players beat Diety according to steam, there are many more that want to improve to the point that they can (even if they never will).
     
  16. screamingpalm

    screamingpalm Chieftain

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    There is the Steam Achievement "Flawless Strategy" (beat the game on Deity). Only 1.5% of players globally have it, maybe that's what the 2% refers to?
    Edit: True, and offline players, players on Deity that didn't beat the level yet etc.
     
  17. Wizard-Bob

    Wizard-Bob Always remember to Find Your FUN!

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    And something further. Even if that number is 2% (which I believe is low) because of their vocal posting on websites such as this one, they may actually impact / sway 20% of the players (another number pulled out of thin air :) )
     
  18. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Even if that's the case this isn't the whole picture (you'd have to compare that number to the number of people that actually play the game, for example only 20% player have a win on a standard map).

    Throwing bonuses at an AI to make the highest difficulty hard is the easy and cheap part and testing is done by people like Maddjinn who could tell you if its too much or not. And then by early customers, us.

    However, unless you give unreasonable bonuses, for them to work you have to have a base AI that plays the game well enough so that getting 30% production and 50% happiness is enough for the AI to be tough.
    And that is the part that cost time and money, the base AI. However, I've seen people from warlord to immortal also complain they don't like the base AI and don't really appreciate the AI being inept without bonuses. So this isn't really only a "deity players" problem.
     
  19. Svetkavitsa

    Svetkavitsa Chieftain

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    Ah, I was very curious about that. It looks like the 2% is actually at least 10%. (For comparing people that actively play the game vs. those who beat it on standard once, the number will be even higher).
     
  20. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

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    Not about to throw figures around because I have no specific basis, but of any portion of the playerbase, the fraction of players active in related forums and such is always considerably smaller.

    Though in the case of high-difficulty players, the fraction could be somewhat larger due to their greater commitment to the game.
     

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