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MADDJINN GAMES, AI problems

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by jokii, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. m15a

    m15a Emperor

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    The percentage of people that beat deity doesn't necessarily correspond to the people dissatisfied with the challenge of Civ V. And the people dissatisfied with the challenge of Civ V doesn't correspond to people that "want a challenge" either.

    And there could be "diminishing returns" to doing something while it's still worth doing.
     
  2. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    You can't actually do that assumption. The numbers aren't related to each other like that. I played Civ 5 for the first two years on a computer on which the maximum mapsize was small. Something that has nothing to do which DL I have (usually Emperor).
     
  3. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    plus, the moment you use a mod, achievements are gone...

    Achievements are also not something 'everyone' goes for, and the stats based on them are pretty bad.

    and yes, to the other points, there are more players of Civ than members of reddit/CFC/etc that post for the games.

    for example:

    https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1TQ...QGSIrP63hJXxQo/viewanalytics?usp=form_confirm

    the amount of players (27907 responses) that said they play below Prince (the 'average closest to even on bonuses' level) was only 'slightly' (1ish total percent) more than the ones that claimed they play on Immortal/Deity (10ish%).

    keeping in mind that this is a self-selecting poll, of reddit users, and no clue if they prevented people from multi-voting (it was talked about on PolyCast long ago, but I can't remember it).

    Given that most self-selected themselves into the Prince-Emperor levels, it's probably close enough.

    but it's a nicer sample than '2%' pulled out of someones arse.
     
  4. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    Hmm, if you really think that 2% (a number that I pulled out of my memory from statistics a couple of years ago) is something that is pulled out of someones arse, but your reddits 3% is the real deal. Because that was what the debate above (regarding the 2%) was about, the number of deity players, not the number of other players. 2%, 3%, Potato, Potato. Colourful language btw. I wonder what language you would use if the numbers really was that different.
     
  5. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    "Sstandard map victory" may not be the best estimate of who plays the game yes. If you find a better estimate then you can get a better picture of what the estimate of people beating deity actually means.

    The example was just to illustrate that taking 1.5% from steam out of context and get to the conclusion that a similar number of player care for deity is non sense.
     
  6. jokii

    jokii Chieftain

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    The main problem is not about AI being not enough competitive...
    The problem are the obvious AI mistakes and bugs.
    And they are present on any difficulty level.
    Like in Civ5...
    AI can not move and shoot
    AI is embarking unit near enemy ships and cities
    AI is camping inside enemy city bombardment range, and he will not attack
    AI doesn't have melee units to take the "no HP" city, so he is camping with artillery units near city and letting them die
    AI doesn't build units when he is in war and under siege...ect...

    I hope they will at least fix those obvious ones which are destroying gameplay...
     
  7. The_Reckoning

    The_Reckoning Prince

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    Personally, I don't play on Deity. But the AI being so terrible at 1UPT invasions, I'm basically invulnerable unless I give it a massive cheating advantage, spoils the entire game for me irrespective of the difficulty I play on.

    For someone who doesn't find Deity challenging enough, the artificial difficulty bonuses can be increased to the point where they will lose. But I imagine I'm in the majority when I say that that would be no fun.

    In Civ4 you have to be a lot more careful, because the AI can actually use its army properly, so the AI bonuses have far more impact, and it takes a non-absurd handicap to the player tp become challenging.
     
  8. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    I would lump in the Immortal players as those that want a more challenging game. The Immortal AI gets a lot of bonuses above the emperor level, beyond just some % increases.

    Plus, as has been stated on these boards before, some people can play at Deity/Immortal but prefer to play at emperor due to the bonuses. They still want a better AI, but not necessarily 'fake difficulty' (given extra settlers/etc).

    Plus, as I said in my post, the reddit poll is self-selecting (chose to participate), only in the reddit community -- which is a nice sample, but not necessarily accurate to the whole.

    edit:

    and I was comparing 'casual' vs. 'not casual' wrt those stats, mainly, those that self-select that they play below Prince and those that self-select that they play above emperor.
     
  9. Ryoga

    Ryoga King

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    What difficulty people play at doesn't really tell much about how much challenging they find the game. A lot of people simply do not like to play with severe handicaps compared to their adversaries.

    It's like a chess a simulator with a stupid AI that gives you the option of making the game more challenging by removing your rooks and knights. But that means you won't be using rooks and knights, and likewise playing deity in Civ V is like saying you're not gonna build most wonders or making several other decisions that are generally considered suboptimal but are still fun to play for some.

    The percentage of those who have the achievement then mean even less.
    I won my deity game a long time ago on vanilla, after beating my first cultural one-city challenge, I figured that I'd need to do basically the same thing on whatever difficulty provided I was playing on archipelago, and yes I won without a hitch, but that was my first and only deity game.


    Moreover cheating is abysmally easy. You just need to change the original xml directly. And some legal option settings are tantamount to cheating. Just play deity on a duel map VS Venice and not a single CS
     
  10. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    I wrote up a few different replies, ended up deleting them all. But I want to respond, so I will try again to get thoughts into somewhat coherent sentences.

    Basically, a modern game needs multiplayer or mod support. Sure, there is the occasional indie game that has a really great story or novel idea, and we gladly pay the 10-15 dollars to play through once or twice before we shelve it. Typically this isn't enough. And then there are abominations like Diablo 3 or Simcity, which discourage both, and get the bad reputation they deserve because of it.

    And then there is Civ, which awkwardly balances both. It never has embraced multi-player--both from a functional standpoint, and the gameplay itself. And while it does indeed embrace mod support, the gameplay revolves around competition. If I want to play a builder, I will play a builder.

    This is the reason why I emphasize AI in this game. As long as multi-player gets a backseat, it needs competent AI. Granted you can still have fun with Civ despite this. Many of us have thousands of hours of fun. But the AI has always been a flaw on an otherwise good game.

    The talk of percentages don't mean much to me. It isn't only Deity players who get annoyed by the poor AI, it is players of all difficulties. And, to add to that point, many of those players have stated themselves that the reason they are reluctant to play at a higher difficulty is specifically because the AI are given cheats in place of being able to play their own game.


    I was actually thinking of this exact analogy. If you are playing your nephew who just learned the rules of chess, you can still have an amusing game if you handicap yourself by taking the rooks off the board. But as a chess player, these games don't hold interest for very long. I want to play chess, not handicap chess. Even if the end result is that the game is "close and competitive", it just isn't the same. Whether I am a 1600 player or a 2800 player, I want to play the game as designed. Whether I am a Prince player or a Deity player, I want to play the game as designed.
     
  11. Leathaface

    Leathaface Emperor

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    So is the AI in BE worst than the in Civ V?
     
  12. TLHeart

    TLHeart King

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    no
    no no
     
  13. Securion

    Securion Civ Veteran

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    No, its the same, and that is the problem.
     
  14. The_Reckoning

    The_Reckoning Prince

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    Time will tell. Possibly, it depends how it copes with the new mechanics vs. how much work the devs have put in to improve it.
     
  15. Leathaface

    Leathaface Emperor

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    There should, we highly likely will be, user made mods that would improve the AI.

    I'll suck when I start the game so the AI will whip me at around medium level, lol. So the AI will be good enough for me at the very start. Though as I move up the difficulties it would be good if the AI was improved.
     
  16. jokii

    jokii Chieftain

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    From what I've seen naval AI looks worse than in Civ5, because of the ships with low defense and "no melee ships" change.
    I hope they will at least fix it with a next patch.
     
  17. Leathaface

    Leathaface Emperor

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    Naval AI looks worse than in Civ V? That's be some achievement.
     
  18. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    Well, we will have to see and we will soon.

    We don't have to shoot the potential stalker just yet. After all, the guy that is passing by your house, might just be a random bloke that is just passing by.

    The game will now go into the next phase - the big public beta test (so we can have a spring balance and bug patch :mischief:).
     
  19. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

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    People keep judging the naval AI based on a pre-release build which had a bug (the move-and-shoot one) which is explicitly said to have been fixed by now.
     
  20. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    and a slight bit of issue with the ranged vs melee component that makes it look even worse.
     

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