Made in Hell

[Whiskey Priest]

Now lets not let this get into a huge debate but I am just curious, do you purchase items made in countries with questionable labour conditions (ie: China, Indonesia, Mexico)

 

[Austin IronFist]

You know, I never really think about it when I'm purchasing something. I guess I should though....

I forget, don't we(U.S.) get something like 40% of our imports from China?

 

[H Tower]

everyone in the US would practicaly be naked if we didn't buy from countries like china and mexico. hmm, what an idea

 

[Apollo]

Originally posted by Austin IronFist
don't we(U.S.) get something like 40% of our imports from China?

Originally posted by H Tower
everyone in the US would practicaly be naked if we didn't buy from countries like china and mexico. hmm, what an idea

Hopefully that 40% of our imports currently go to the female variety, otherwise

I don't really pay attention to it. When I do think of it I try to buy more things made here, but the rest of the time I just hope that our regulation of where we import from is doing a good job. Buying things from those countries also helps them to develop, and hopefully to eventually adopt better practices for how they treat their workers.

 

[damunzy]

Well I can't help but buy Nike shoes since it is hard to find size 14s in much else plus no one makes them as comfortable IMHO.
Seriously, I don't believe that corporation overseas are all that bad since I have heard alot of these people earning less doing other non-"evil corporation" jobs.

 

[MrPresident]

Seriously, I don't believe that corporation overseas are all that bad since I have heard alot of these people earning less doing other non-"evil corporation" jobs.

This is true. The average wage of a multi-national worker is about $1 a day better than the average wage for a domestic worker. Also if the multi-nationals weren't there the workers would be unemployed and earning no wage whatsoever. Remember if you take away the resourse what makes a country competitve you take away the competitiveness of that country. Think before you condemn multinationals they do more good than you think.

This was post was paid for by the corporation of multinationals to promote the multinational way of life.....we need your help, send just £2 (or relative value of your currency) a month and we may just be able to produce 100 more Nike trainers or even the chasis of a Ford car. Thank you.

 

[allhailIndia]

In many of these countries, if multinationals are forced to close because of "protests" thousands of jobs will be lost. Would you prefer that they become criminals and jobless than work under hard conditions. Why the ban Indian leather nearly caused the loss of a half a million jobs and threatened another million dependents. Unless those who take out demonstrations against the working conditions, can come up with a viable solution to this problem, they better shut their collective traps.

 

[joespaniel]

I, for one, would not buy products made by child labor, if I knew what they were...

I dont know who sells what from where.

 

[Whiskey Priest]

Yeah just about what I expected . From the way the Anti-Globalization movement is portrayed in the media it seems as though all young people are participants. I was somewhat sceptical of this.

I am encouraged by the higher then expected representation in the "Try not too, but you really have no choice" catagory. God I know how that is. It took me a week to find a backpack that wasen't made in indonesia or china. I eventually had to shop online (something I hate doing) but I got a good price on a well made bag (made in canada).


"I dont know who sells what from where."

understandable, seeing how sweatshop reporting in the mainstream media died out after the Kathy Lee Giford scandal. But there are some good sites on the net, like:

http://www.cleanclothes.org/
http://www.behindthelabel.org/

 

[allan]

Then of course, there is what the poster from India (one of the oft-accused countries) had to say. I found that particularly interesting, since he is closer to the so-called "problem".

(I've heard of China selling products made from prison labor though--not sure if some of this is rumor, but I'll bet some is true too. THAT would bother me, particularly considering that some of these prisoners probably didn't, IMHO, commit REAL crimes. But someone who's making a living that didn't really before? How can I presume to judge what is best for THEM?)

 

[scorch]

i detest sweatshops.

The pay, its bad enough, the conditions are worse, forced 15 hr days, and bad drinking water etc.


The corperations can afford to pay them 10x as much, but its the profits that are getting in the way. Tell me why the corporation, SHOULDN'T pay child workers a decent wage.

 

[MrPresident]

The corperations can afford to pay them 10x as much, but its the profits that are getting in the way. Tell me why the corporation, SHOULDN'T pay child workers a decent wage.

First of all a corporation cannot afford to pay them 10 times as much because another corporation would come along and pay them lower wages. They then would have lower costs and afford to sell their products at a lower price and thus compete away the high-wage corporation. Secondly, it all depends waht you deem a decent wage. Since you come from New Zealand I will assume that a decent wage is quite reasonable relative to the world's richest countries (G8 etc). However that wage is relative to what it can buy in your country so if your wage was say (I will work in dollars since its the international currency) $10 an hour it would seem a decent wage. However if in that same country a loaf of bread cost $10 (unlikely but could happen under hyper-inflation) then the wage would seem a lot worse. So a terrible wage by your standards would be a decent wage by a developing countries' standard (it all depends of purchasing parity power which believe it or not is worked out by the price of a big Mac in the different countries).

Now a worldwide law saying that all countries (developed and developing) have to have a minimum wage that is equal it may seem a good idea but think again. The reason that multinationals locate to developing countries (especially south-east Asia) is because the wages are lower than in the developed countries. If you take away this advantage than work will return to the developed countries because of a more skilled workforce and higher technology level. So the developing countries would have a higher wage but no-one would be earning it. Finally, the idea that multinationals exploit their workforce, in terms of pay, is unfounded. Studies (by the World Bank) have shown that the average wage paid by a multinational in developing countries is higher than the domestic wage level. There are many problems with the practices of multinationals but low wages are generally not one of them.

 

[Whiskey Priest]

Originally posted by MrPresident


First of all a corporation cannot afford to pay them 10 times as much because another corporation would come along and pay them lower wages. They then would have lower costs and afford to sell their products at a lower price and thus compete away the high-wage corporation. Secondly, it all depends waht you deem a decent wage. Since you come from New Zealand I will assume that a decent wage is quite reasonable relative to the world's richest countries (G8 etc). However that wage is relative to what it can buy in your country so if your wage was say (I will work in dollars since its the international currency) $10 an hour it would seem a decent wage. However if in that same country a loaf of bread cost $10 (unlikely but could happen under hyper-inflation) then the wage would seem a lot worse. So a terrible wage by your standards would be a decent wage by a developing countries' standard (it all depends of purchasing parity power which believe it or not is worked out by the price of a big Mac in the different countries).

Yes you do have a point. I would not ask a corporation that operates in indonesia to pay $6.85 (Ontario' minimum wage). The problem is that even when adjusted for international currency exchange rates the wage payed by multinationals in developing countries (specifically ones operating in Export Processing Zones) is below a living wage. For more information I have provided a link. (The relevent information is on pages 7-11)

http://www.cleanclothes.org/ftp/wearing_thin.PDF

Studies (by the World Bank) have shown that the average wage paid by a multinational in developing countries is higher than the domestic wage level. There are many problems with the practices of multinationals but low wages are generally not one of them.

This is true. Multinationals rarely operate their own factories in the developed countries. What is done is that the manufacturing is "outsourced" to contractors. These contractors then hire workers and maintain factories. So while it is technically true that multinationals do not exploit their employees, they purchase their merchandise from people who do.

 

[amadeus]

I don't blame the corporations for using the cheap labor, after all -- the most important thing to do is deliver a profit to the shareholders and a fair-priced product for the customers.

Why hasn't Jiang Zemin opened up China from the kind of martial law since Mao's Communist revolution? It's the national government that is to take responsibility for the taxes that it basically extorts out of these people.

 

[Whiskey Priest]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
I don't blame the corporations for using the cheap labor, after all -- the most important thing to do is deliver a profit to the shareholders and a fair-priced product for the customers.

Not gonna touch that one.

Why hasn't Jiang Zemin opened up China from the kind of martial law since Mao's Communist revolution? It's the national government that is to take responsibility for the taxes that it basically extorts out of these people.

I have to agree with you rmsharpe (j/k). The Chinese government is responcible for the conditions in sweatshops. The "People's" republic contains more export processing zones then any other nation. EPZs are essential tax free zones we're the contries labour laws don't normally apply. Oh but they do enforce one of their labour laws in the zones, start a trade union, 5-8 years of hard labour.

 

[Fart]

I think it's wrong if sweat shops use child labor because children don't have a choice but I think it's ok with adults. If they don't like their job then they don't have to work there. I know there isn't an alternative but that's why sweat shops set up in the poorest areas of the world. Sweat shops that employ adults are actually beneficial, why would people work there if they don't think the pay was worth it? I'm not saying corporations are being nice but it's a deal both the employer and employee are ok with.

 

[Whiskey Priest]

The majority of sweatshop workers are females aged 15-25 (That's a conservative estimate). These workers are usually fired when they reach a certain age. Oh and incidently some factory managers fire women if they are pregnant.

The International Labour Organization estimates 52 million children work in manufacturing and 250 million in all other areas (domestic servants, agriculture)

 

[scorch]

if corporations paid $2 hr, and provide good conditions, then more workers would flock to them, think about it. If Nike for example, set up hundreds of good condition factorys in China etc, and used most of the available labour, paying $2 hr, which is much lower than anywhere else, none of the competitors could get labour, and would have to go elsewhere. (ok, that situation is a bit sketchy).

But the point goes back to ethics, is it really fair to undercut chinese boys, so the shareholders get paid more?

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by scorch
But the point goes back to ethics, is it really fair to undercut chinese boys, so the shareholders get paid more?

Yes.

Those people in China want economic power as much as we do in America. The only difference is, is that we are affluent and they are not.

 

[MrPresident]

Are you ready? Sitting comfortably? Ok I shall begin.

Those people in China want economic power as much as we do in America. The only difference is, is that we are affluent and they are not.

I can think of a couple of more reasons than that.

if corporations paid $2 hr, and provide good conditions, then more workers would flock to them, think about it. If Nike for example, set up hundreds of good condition factorys in China etc, and used most of the available labour, paying $2 hr, which is much lower than anywhere else, none of the competitors could get labour, and would have to go elsewhere. (ok, that situation is a bit sketchy).

My first problem with this is, what is the point? Why bother getting all the labour if there are only a limited number of jobs available. You would be paying people to do nothing just so your competitors wouldn't get any labour. Also there is an awful lot of labour available in the world and I don't think anyone could afford to employ even a tiny faction of them. Secondly, multinationals already pay more than their domestic competitors to get the labour they need so why increase their pay?

The majority of sweatshop workers are females aged 15-25 (That's a conservative estimate). These workers are usually fired when they reach a certain age. Oh and incidently some factory managers fire women if they are pregnant.

This situation sounds very familar. It also as if you are talking about Britain during the industrial revolution. Have you ever wondered why are female school teachers are called "miss"? Think about it.

I think it's wrong if sweat shops use child labor because children don't have a choice but I think it's ok with adults.

I agree with the senitment in this post but there are a few problems I have with it. First of all, how do you define an adult. Is it someone aged 16?17?18?21? Secondly, what would these children do if they aren't working? Their family can't afford to send them to school and their government can't afford to provide it for free. Their family can barely afford to survive with their child working what will they do now? I think everyone agrees that there should be an end to child labour but you must think about the consquences.

the most important thing to do is deliver a profit to the shareholders and a fair-priced product for the customers.

The most important thing for a company is to maximise profits even at the expense of providing a fair priced product. Look at the oil companies (especially BP).