Major wars of conquest while keeping cities developed?

[R82]

Not sure if this counts as a newbie question, since it's arguably a more advanced issue, but I've been struggling with this ever since I first started playing the game, years ago: How to people ever manage it to wage major wars of conquest, that is, specifically, to train enough troops for major wars of conquest, while still keeping their cities reasonably well-developed?

Sure, you can and should specialize your cities, but even cities specialized in military production need at least barracks, forges, factories, and drydocks if on the coast. And if you want a full set of national wonders, then a high share of your cities needs a theater, a courthouse, a library, a university, a forge, and a bank each. Who has time to built all that and still train more troops than are needed for basic defense?

I hope this post is not too whiny.

 

[AcaMetis]

Most players use a combination of Slavery and chopping forests (depending on the exact era) to quickly whip a military out of developed cities, with specialist military production cities usually only focussing on pumping out I.E. siege units that do most of the heavy lifting so that the rest of the empire can just pump out enough warm bodies to clean up afterwards.

A key concept for this strategy is whipping overflow. I don't have the exact numbers on hand, but each pop you whip adds a flat amount of production to the city's build cue (subject to relevant modifiers, such as having a Forge). By carefully timing whips and planning out build order you can keep whipping 2-3 pop at once, producing enough excess production to complete part of another unit at the same time. Whipping is per whip, regardless of how much population was affected, so you can imagine that being able to do 2-3 times as many whips that are each 1-1.5x as effective at pumping out units makes a huge difference in unit production speed compared to mainly using 1 pop whips that don't produce any (appreciable) overflow.

 

[Major Tom]

AcaMetis gave you a great answer how to get serious troops. In addition, in the later game you can draft troops. Drafted riflemen are very cost efficient.

while still keeping their cities reasonably well-developed?

If you are going for a major campaign and a domination win there is no reason to have well developed cities. Whip them down to the ground.

 

[lymond]

Moderator Action: This topic warrants a deeper discussion and a separate thread. Cheers -lymond

 

[Major Tom]

@R82 Another trick if you are planning war with say, curassiers or cannons, is to run caste (and pacifism + golden age to boot ) to get some great merchants and send them on missions to upgrade horse archers and catapults.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Post factories it becomes relatively easy to mass-produce units, due to the additional modifiers. Factories with power are a huge step and can do a lot on their own. Forge + Factory + Power doubles base .

At the same time state property is unlocked as a civic, which, optimally together with caste system, allows to workshop lots of tiles, increasing base considerably. Together this results in even mediocre cities being able to 2-turn a tank on normal speed.

at least barracks, forges, factories, and drydocks if on the coast. And if you want a full set of national wonders, then a high share of your cities needs a theater, a courthouse, a library, a university, a forge, and a bank each.

IMHO only one or two, rarely more, cities need a drydock. This is again specialization at work, as one does not need many ships. Frequently a few transports will do the job, a huge fleet is only required when attacking someone who is alone on their continent. Else using another players territory as staging area greatly reduces the need for ships, as troops can be shipped in several waves.

Banks are only good in cities with good shrines, making wall street one of the worse national wonders. It just costs too much.

Libraries are good in commerce cities, but not everywhere.

About the other ones, you only need six for national wonders. If you have land it is at most half your cities (good ones), which will need that building. If you have little land, conquest frequently takes priority. The globe theatre helps with military, as does the heroic epic, but other NW and infrastructure do not and thus should not be built in such a position.

Basically most buildings are worse than building wealth, as this is a game of snowballing. Buildings provide greater benefit, but at a later time, often too late.

train enough troops

in the classical era about 10 troops will do the job, before rifles often 20-30, before factories maybe 40-50. Recon and wise choices in attacking time can reduce requirements, meaning that one does not need as many troops. Do not overbuild.

Lastly, sometimes in difficult positions development has to be sacrificed.

 

[Tecumseh1]

I don’t build half the buildings you mentioned especially pre industrial era. A simple tip which took me a while to figure out is that you can whip every other turn with enough happy cap. Practice switching from research into unit building mode and then transitioning back when appropriate. Don’t try to research technologies that won’t help right away while preparing and fighting wars.

 

[Gumbolt]

+1 for state property/caste. Forge/Factory and coal plant and infantry/Artilery can be 1-2 turn builds. Barracks is only real additonal building you need. You can use civics for +2-4 xp for new units.

Of course you need more cities to become a huge war machine. You can't be waiting for factories for your first war. No reason not to go horse archer or catapult/phats/axe/sword early on.

By 1300ad you should have control of your continent. On huge maps less likely but I could easily have 30+ cities by then.

If you are still stuck on 5-6 cities by 1800ad you are playng the game wrong.

 

[sampsa]

Sure, you can and should specialize your cities, but even cities specialized in military production need at least barracks, forges, factories, and drydocks if on the coast. And if you want a full set of national wonders, then a high share of your cities needs a theater, a courthouse, a library, a university, a forge, and a bank each. Who has time to built all that and still train more troops than are needed for basic defense?

I don't really specialize cities (commerce/prod) and rarely build forges. Games are generally won before factories so they don't matter in most games. In general I don't build theaters, courthouses, universities, forges or banks. I prefer to put those towards units!

And that is the way how the ball keeps rolling. Don't put too many to buildings, generally don't work mines, rather grow (on food and cottages) and whip.

 

[sampsa]

Study this game https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/immortal-shadow-game-cyrus.690553/ there are even all the autosaves available if you really want to look into it. +50 cavs 1000AD with no tech trading on immortal.

 

[gavenkoa]

A key concept for this strategy is whipping overflow. I don't have the exact numbers on hand, but each pop you whip adds a flat amount of production to the city's build cue (subject to relevant modifiers, such as having a Forge). By carefully timing whips and planning out build order you can keep whipping 2-3 pop at once, producing enough excess production to complete part of another unit at the same time. Whipping is per whip, regardless of how much population was affected, so you can imagine that being able to do 2-3 times as many whips that are each 1-1.5x as effective at pumping out units makes a huge difference in unit production speed compared to mainly using 1 pop whips that don't produce any (appreciable) overflow.

Overflow itself is not "that" important, in your writing you focused more on good 2-3 pop whip & bad 1 pop whip.

Overflow size is important only if the next project has Hammer bonus which another project doesn't. Like for wonders (with trait/Marble/Stone/Copper/Ivory) or leader's trait (on wonders/settlers/workers) or civics (buildings under Organized Religion).

Early Forge equally helpful for units & buildings...

Huge overflow is actually harmful when it is into into a cheap unit because it makes next whip 1-pop (which are avoided at all cost).

For instance:

* you 2-pop whip 50H Catapult, after investing 1-19H (if you invest 20H you get 1-pop whip), in 2T.
* you collect 60-50+{1:19} = {10:29}H. If you have collected strictly less than 20H you could repeat process. Otherwise you overflow {20:29}H into Axman, for example and then switch to step 1.

Depending on Hammer production (based on tiles, like Iron or mined hill or bonuses, like Forge) we spend in cycles:

* 2T on whip
* 2T on whip + 1T on burning overflow to prevent 1-pop whip = 3T cycle.

If city performance is greater than 2-3T per unit - whipping is senseless.

So the strategy - to grow cities to large sizes, because Food is accumulator + you huge cities work on more cottages. Before the war you discharge accumulator via 2T or 3T cycles, reducing city size by 2pop till:

* it becomes 1-2pop
* or earlier if you want to wipe whip anger before the end of the game (each anger has 10T delay, so 10 whips in 20T gives 100T-20T=80T punishment)
* or if you want a city to work on important tiles (like Food tiles)

Forge improves 2pop whip from 2*30H = 60H into 2*30*(100%+25%) = 75H. Forge cost is 120H. So Forge repays after 120/(75-60) = 8 whips. Still you cannot discharge food easily into Gold (only via Wonder failgold via near perfect 29H overflows), so in a peace time one might 4-pop whip a forge in overcrowded city, in war time you discharge accumulator exclusively into military ))

 

[AcaMetis]

Overflow itself is not "that" important, in your writing you focused more on good 2-3 pop whip & bad 1 pop whip.

I was mainly thinking about whipping for an axe rush when writing that - using 2-pop whips and the overflow to basically complete a second axe with the overflow and a bit of extra production, which halves the whip unhappiness penalty compared to 1-pop whipping axes - though catapults are also a case where whipping overflow is worth keeping in mind (even if it doesn't play as much of a role). The thing with catapults is that siege units cannot win wars on their own, you need other units to go along with them, and using excess whipping overflow to get out a few extra units on the cheap isn't the worst idea. Even if it's just a few Archers they'll server their purpose as unit cleanup and city garrisons while your actual army moves on to the next target.

When I mentioned whipping overflow being a key concept I didn't mean to imply that it's always beneficial, as you've pointed out it can be a detriment in some cases. I called it a key concept because in many - not all, of course, but many - cases it's something you need to manage in order to whip out an army more effectively, whether that's utilizing it as a boon or mitigating it as a detriment (if not both).

 

[gavenkoa]

The thing with catapults is that siege units cannot win wars on their own, you need other units to go along with them, and using excess whipping overflow to get out a few extra units on the cheap isn't the worst idea

It was a discovery for me that catapults could be accompanied with even trash to win wars. Initially I loved Swardsman for 6STR & 20% against cities, but now I pick even 2STR Warriors because AI tries to match number of defenders to number of non-cata offenders, and extra warrior or archer in a stack might help with last heavy weakened defenders.

IDK if anything advanced offensive is needed, probably for hilled cities. I tried pumping catapults a lot, other mils are just to match city defenders' count +few extra for misfortune and after the battle defence covering different attack types.

I wonder what type of war will be without any mil resources, catapults & archers? Never was in such situation.

 

[AcaMetis]

If you've got zero strategic resources Archerpult is, indeed, one desperate (if functional) way to wage war. Lain actually showed it off once during a Saladin game IIRC.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Forges. After training units more quickly, the gold from "build wealth" is also multiplied by forges. I often lose money even when my commerce is set at 100% gold.

After civil service, the capital city build many city improvements. But note that your starting capital might not be the final capital. Only invest in infrastructure in your long-term capital.

 

[R82]

Wow, I didn't expect so many people to write such thoughtful replies! Thank you all very much! I'll try to think about all that.

 

[gavenkoa]

Forges. After training units more quickly, the gold from "build wealth" is also multiplied by forges. I often lose money even when my commerce is set at 100% gold.

Not to fortget Forges give Happiness with Gold, Silver, Gems.

Unfortunately Wealth rarely benefits from Forges early on, because of preference for cottage economy. Only few cities will work mines (especiallii Gold one).

I like Forge sinergy with AP religios building hammers. 2+2=4H (monastery + temple) & 4×25%=1H extra from a forge.

But note that your starting capital might not be the final capita

Is it viable to move the capital on diety / immortal difficulty?

 

[Gumbolt]

I generally avoid forges unless industrious. If you are going cuirs it's a big build and slows down the cuirs date.Especially if you have to 2-3 pop whip them at over size 10. Maybe in the capital for happiness. Likely not in many other cities. Same for barracks likely not needed in every city. Use civics and other mechanics for XP. Or focus barracks in production cities. You only need 10 hammers into a cuirs for a 3 pop whip. Most buildings are junk in civ 4 beyond granary and maybe library early on. If you plan for late game and factories then yes forges are good with state property as it's needed to build factories.

Not sure i would be using 2str warriors with catapults. HA will wipe out the catapults with flanking.The minute the Ai get LB or axes the warriors will do little or no damage to the cities. It's just gobbling up gold in unit support. Warriors are better for HR happiness in capital.

 

[gavenkoa]

minute the Ai get LB or axes the warriors will do little or no damage to the cities

I remember cata reduces STR up to 25%, so LB are reduced to 6×.25 = 1.5STR. Bad odds vs Warrior, good against Archer or better unit. Warrior is for LB that managed to survive battles, if you have spare one. IDK if they should be upgraded or dismissed. Or gifted to vasal.

 

[jorissimo]

Not sure if this is what you're on about but when I came back from a 4-year hiatus (the previous phase having been largely spent on RFC and DoC) I invariably wrecked my econ when waging major wars. I would get anxious and build way too many troops, drafting without theaters and whipping way too hard. I would also basically ignore all other aspects of the game while prepping for/being at war. Knowing how many units is enough and when to switch back to development mode takes practice, it's something you need to get a feel for. In general in civ 4 you need to be very goal-oriented with everything and have your empire work in tandem towards a particular goal, switching between different phases characterized by different objectives. Building all of the buildings runs directly counter to this.