Make war in Civ3 as close to reality as possible...

SKS

Chieftain
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
26
I was thinking, that here are a lot of discontinuities in Civ 3. For example, Rome is not an (extremely) effective conquering Civ in their Unique Unit era. Or the fact that the Mongols have a UU that is no better than a knight in attacking, despite the fact that their horse archers in real life were the terrors of the middle ages. Continuing on, we have some pretty weird results for Civs being weirdly good in some areas, too. China is the true warmonger Civ, despite the fact that they, in reality, never invaded another country, and were content with what is undoubtedly a building strategy in real life. The Americans have a rough time of making anymore of an impact in the modern era than they do in any other era, despite their obvious dominance now.

Looking past the Civs themselves, we see that assaulting cities is a completely different approach than in real life. Fully cutting off a city in real life is essential, while in Civ 3, it's completely impractical t do so. (9 spaces to cover? Forget it, I'll take the two extra Calvary in that city if it comes to that)


So in that vein, I'm just going to fantasize on how best to alter the Civ's UU to reflect their history. I'm not going to touch their traits. (I'm not going to open that can of worms, thank you very much) Note, it's not a mod, just brainstorming.

Some ground rules I have set for myself: If a Civ's UU is already great, then I won't touch it, I'd just add a second UU to nudge their overall play strats to reflect their histories.


Civs with UUs that don't reflect their history well, and are merely average, or are just abysmal I'd redo, or maybe totally replace.


Please let me know what you guys think!

~SKS




Spoiler :
First, I'd add a worker ability. This would be called "Combat Engineer", and would be available with Invention. The worker takes two turns to shift into a combat engineer, a unit with a different set of abilities. Combat engineers are affected by the industrious trait. Stacking CEs do improve efficiency, but not as effectively as workers, due to their actions usually being in enemy territory. Each added CE improves workforce by +50% percent

A combat engineer is a 0.0.1 unit that can perform the actions:

*"Siege" base (10 turns)

No enemy tiles except for the city tile can be worked. Citizens inside the city all become specialists known as "Refugee" that requires only one food per turn to survive, and produces one shield. Corruption immediately skyrockets. Citizens of different nationality may actually abandon your city to join the invading army if they are of the same nation, or they really admire the army's culture, when faced with siege.
The CE (or CEs) that created the siege are forced to remain in the tile they created the siege from. Taking even one CE out will lift the siege. Sieges then become a balance between tying up your workers and creating one quickly.

The CE, when adjacent to a city, can begin setting up road blocks, tearing up bridges and destroying roads to effectively isolate the population into their city.

This ability is researched with invention.

(On a side note, one can replicate this ability before Invention by placing units over every one of the adjacent land tiles of a city, sea tiles included if the city has a harbor)
(When you enter the Modern age, units have progressed to such a small, unitized degree that sieges of full cities are no longer possible or feasible. However, your cities are no longer affected by siege, either, happily.)
(Siege takes longer when enforced from a hillside, and is not possible from a mountain.)



* "Minefield" Base (6)
Whenever any unit with HP enters this tile, spends a turn or moves out of it, they are bombarded by an attack that is 3/4s their defensive strength, rounded up. Workers can clear minefield, but CEs are more effective at it.

The CE can begin burying landmines all over crucial routes in the area. Civilians are maneuverable enough to avoid the mines well enough, but troops must enter the minefields, thus are damaged.

This ability is researched with replaceable parts. Guerrillas and TOW infantry can maneuver the minefields well enough.



"Seafaring"
After amphibious warfare is researched, CEs can cross onto, and minefield coast squares. Mine-fielding coast squares takes double the time, but cuts off any citizen from working that square, and damages ship units just as easily. Transport units take double damage.


Spoiler :
Rome

Rome was a big conumdrum for me. I knew from history and Rome Total war that Legionnaires were indeed very balanced troops in their day. I considered making them cheaper, but that didn't make any sense at all. I considered adding an extra attack to their 3.3.1, but that would make it a 4.3.1 unit, completely unrealistic and unbalanced.

For a while, I gave up, and thought about replacing their catapult with a more effective Onager as a second UU, and leaving it at that, but that idea didn't sit well with me.

Then, I remembered my own addition: the siege.

And the solution was clear. Legionnaires would be the first, and only Ancient Age unit to be able to lay siege. They would be less efficient than CEs, for sure, but it was a perfect plan. This would transform Rome into a slow, dangerous moving behemoth, that would fit their role perfectly.

Imagine, watching a storm of units sprawl across your territory, and you desperately try and finish them before they reach your cities, but with 3 defense, this is not an easy task. They'd lay siege, choking out your cities one by one, until they all fall.

It may be close to broken. But it fits Rome's huge, sprawling empire perfectly.


With this, I felt satisfied I did Rome justice in Civ3.


Spoiler :

The Mongols

I really did consider making the Mongols a 5.2.2 unit. It would make sense, I told myself, their horse archers were the best in their day. But I didn't feel right with it. It wouldn't encourage the hordes that they were so favored for, and didn't make much sense. They were good attackers, not paper tigers by any degree.

Any assault by the Mongols with a 5.2.2 keshik unit would resemble two reverse slaughters, like watching Scandinavia assault with no pikemen. And the Mongols didn't have anything that could defend and keep up with a 5.2.2 unit anyways.


But then, I was inspired.

Since when did the Mongols ever have longbowmen?

So I changed it. Their UU would instead replace the Longbowmen. It would be a 4.1.2 unit that was more expensive than a LBM, but significantly less than a knight.

This fit perfectly. The Mongols could swarm their Longbow Keshiks until they truly did have a horde, and the take apart other Civs with efficient ease.
Even better, since their Knight unit was not replaced, it could act as a guard for the Mongol's Longbow Keshiks. And the Mongols really did have armored men on horseback, armed with lances and swords as auxiliaries to their horse archers, so this fit in with history, too.

The Mongols could have highly mobile stacks of Knights and Longbow Keshiks, all ready to swarm their nearest victim!

I'm proud of it.


Spoiler :

China

China I can do nothing for. At least to shift their perferred strat to a builder strat, I can do nothing. Riders are just too good. Nothing I come up with would change how people played the Chinese as long as couldn't make their UU worse, or change their traits. (An unwritten rule in my head was that I wouldn't make any Civ worse than what the designers made, only better in differently ways.) So I made something that at least represented Chinese Culture in another way.

The Chinese I came up with a second UU, one to replace the Trebuchet. The Rocket Warrior. The Rocket Warrior is a 0.0.1/6.1.1 unit that has lethal bombardment. He does not require any materials, the saltpeter the warrior is using is comparatively unrefined than the saltpeter used by the musketman. It's just a man, with a bunch of rockets that shoot them at other people. Nothing special except for the fact that he's a tad cheaper, and can kill other units.


This is all I'm going to come up with for now. I'd love it if people could send me their thoughts, or come up with ideas of their own to share.

~SKS
 
I was thinking, that here are a lot of discontinuities in Civ 3.
Well, that's kind of to be expected - the game's pretty simple. Anyway, some of what I posted may be wrong (I don't think any of it is). Overall, I think you have some good ideas, I'm just not sure how balanced they would be (and some of my suggestions are probably a bit imba as well ;)).

Spoiler :
For example, Rome is not an (extremely) effective conquering Civ in their Unique Unit era.
Rome's advantage was *not* that their legions were significantly better than the opposing forces. Their advantage was that their state and their economy was robust enough to through enough adaptable hordes of well-equipped Heavy Infantry - in an age where most forces would have comparatively lightly armed/armoured Heavy Infantry, or Medium and Light Infantry - at their enemies until they won.

Or the fact that the Mongols have a UU that is no better than a knight in attacking, despite the fact that their horse archers in real life were the terrors of the middle ages.
The Mongols fared very poorly when drawn into close-quarters engagements with Europeans, however. They used feigned retreats and huge maneuverability to simply avoid contact - the only way I can see making the Keshik 'realistic' in the terms you're implying would be to make them a 3-move Unit with a high offensive Bombard, but weaker combat stats.

China is the true warmonger Civ, despite the fact that they, in reality, never invaded another country, and were content with what is undoubtedly a building strategy in real life.
Eh, they fought amongst themselves for quite some time, and it took the Mongols a long time to subjugate them as well. And China was a pretty dominant cultural force in the area as well, 'conquerors' or no.

Looking past the Civs themselves, we see that assaulting cities is a completely different approach than in real life. Fully cutting off a city in real life is essential, while in Civ 3, it's completely impractical t do so.
In a real siege, 'fully cutting off' a defending city/fortification isn't essential - what's essential is preventing enough supplies/reinforcements from reaching the defender. They basically boiled down to starving the defenders out, taking it by treachery, or being forced to withdraw (due to their own supply problems or other logistical issues, or due to enemy reinforcements). Of course, Civ is fairly incapable of properly depicting logistical issues and a real siege anyway ....

First, I'd add a worker ability. This would be called "Combat Engineer", and would be available with Invention. The worker takes two turns to shift into a combat engineer, a unit with a different set of abilities. Combat engineers are affected by the industrious trait. Stacking CEs do improve efficiency, but not as effectively as workers, due to their actions usually being in enemy territory. Each added CE improves workforce by +50% percent

A combat engineer is a 0.0.1 unit that can perform the actions:
Better (IMO) would be to simply make a new unit (I'm not sure it's even possible to 'morph' a unit as you're suggesting).

*"Siege" base (10 turns)
No enemy tiles except for the city tile can be worked. Citizens inside the city all become specialists known as "Refugee" that requires only one food per turn to survive, and produces one shield. Corruption immediately skyrockets. Citizens of different nationality may actually abandon your city to join the invading army if they are of the same nation, or they really admire the army's culture, when faced with siege.
The CE (or CEs) that created the siege are forced to remain in the tile they created the siege from. Taking even one CE out will lift the siege. Sieges then become a balance between tying up your workers and creating one quickly.

The CE, when adjacent to a city, can begin setting up road blocks, tearing up bridges and destroying roads to effectively isolate the population into their city.

This ability is researched with invention.

(On a side note, one can replicate this ability before Invention by placing units over every one of the adjacent land tiles of a city, sea tiles included if the city has a harbor)
(When you enter the Modern age, units have progressed to such a small, unitized degree that sieges of full cities are no longer possible or feasible. However, your cities are no longer affected by siege, either, happily.)
(Siege takes longer when enforced from a hillside, and is not possible from a mountain.)
The CE essentially creates a Pillage and Bombarded effect on every square, *and* makes the city useless? I think you're overpowering them quite a bit. I mean, the way you've written it, one CE unit can set up a Siege, then you just stack a few Defenders with him and you've neutralized a city. The only 'drawback' is the 10 turns it takes to set it up ... and outside of the Modern Age (and even in that!), any city should be taken in much less than 10 turns.


* "Minefield" Base (6)
Whenever any unit with HP enters this tile, spends a turn or moves out of it, they are bombarded by an attack that is 3/4s their defensive strength, rounded up. Workers can clear minefield, but CEs are more effective at it.

The CE can begin burying landmines all over crucial routes in the area. Civilians are maneuverable enough to avoid the mines well enough, but troops must enter the minefields, thus are damaged.

This ability is researched with replaceable parts. Guerrillas and TOW infantry can maneuver the minefields well enough.
There are only two issues I see with this: First, the variable Bombard damage is not something I think can be done (it may ... I don't know); it'd be far simpler to simply make it a 12 or so Bombard value with 1 Rate of Fire. Second, the Repeating effect is something else I don't think is possible; if it is possible, I think it should only be when units enter or leave the tile.

Rome
Rome was a big conumdrum for me. I knew from history and Rome Total war that Legionnaires were indeed very balanced troops in their day. I considered making them cheaper, but that didn't make any sense at all. I considered adding an extra attack to their 3.3.1, but that would make it a 4.3.1 unit, completely unrealistic and unbalanced.
Then, I remembered my own addition: the siege.
...
It may be close to broken. But it fits Rome's huge, sprawling empire perfectly.

With this, I felt satisfied I did Rome justice in Civ3.
Frankly, I'd think making them cheaper actually would fit in with historical Rome rather well - well-equipped Infantry were not terribly common. Keep them 3/2/1 like a regular Swordsman unit, but make them 25 Shields to reflect Rome's greater use of them.

If you need to give them a special ability, why not just give them the ability to build Fortresses and Barricades like the Crusader (and I think one of the scenarios gives them that ability as well ...)?

The Mongols

I really did consider making the Mongols a 5.2.2 unit. It would make sense, I told myself, their horse archers were the best in their day. But I didn't feel right with it. It wouldn't encourage the hordes that they were so favored for, and didn't make much sense. They were good attackers, not paper tigers by any degree.

Any assault by the Mongols with a 5.2.2 keshik unit would resemble two reverse slaughters, like watching Scandinavia assault with no pikemen. And the Mongols didn't have anything that could defend and keep up with a 5.2.2 unit anyways.

But then, I was inspired.

Since when did the Mongols ever have longbowmen?

So I changed it. Their UU would instead replace the Longbowmen. It would be a 4.1.2 unit that was more expensive than a LBM, but significantly less than a knight.

This fit perfectly. The Mongols could swarm their Longbow Keshiks until they truly did have a horde, and the take apart other Civs with efficient ease.
Even better, since their Knight unit was not replaced, it could act as a guard for the Mongol's Longbow Keshiks. And the Mongols really did have armored men on horseback, armed with lances and swords as auxiliaries to their horse archers, so this fit in with history, too.

The Mongols could have highly mobile stacks of Knights and Longbow Keshiks, all ready to swarm their nearest victim!

I'm proud of it.
I can honestly say that I don't actually have much criticism for the idea; the most I can think of off-hand is that the only reason the Mongols wouldn't have used many Longbows would be that they're nearly impossible to use on horseback. I tried to find criticism of the idea, but that was mainly because I didn't like the presentation of the idea.

China

China I can do nothing for. At least to shift their perferred strat to a builder strat, I can do nothing. Riders are just too good. Nothing I come up with would change how people played the Chinese as long as couldn't make their UU worse, or change their traits. (An unwritten rule in my head was that I wouldn't make any Civ worse than what the designers made, only better in differently ways.) So I made something that at least represented Chinese Culture in another way.

The Chinese I came up with a second UU, one to replace the Trebuchet. The Rocket Warrior. The Rocket Warrior is a 0.0.1/6.1.1 unit that has lethal bombardment. He does not require any materials, the saltpeter the warrior is using is comparatively unrefined than the saltpeter used by the musketman. It's just a man, with a bunch of rockets that shoot them at other people. Nothing special except for the fact that he's a tad cheaper, and can kill other units.

Hmm ... a weaker version of the Hwa'cha (or however you spell it) that doesn't require any resources and replaces the Trebuchet? Egh. Lose the Lethal Bombardment and I can see it working ... fairly well. If you absolutely must keep the Lethal Bombard, make it a Defensive Bombard on a 1/2/1 unit or something.

What I would suggest would be a unique *building* (I'm fairly sure it's doable, just might require a bit of modification). Possibly the most famous thing about China (aside from its wall and its immense population) would be the bureacracy it possessed that kept it more-or-less running for longer than just about any other civilization has existed, so a building with either a:
Courthouse Effect
or
Happiness Effect
or
Tax Revenue Effect (IE, gives +1 gpt or something).

I would not suggest adding a Cultural effect to it, if only because I'm not sure how that would balance out for a Culture Victory. The building would become available to build with Philosophy.

The part where modding would come into play is that the only way I can think of to allow it to be buildable by only the Chinese would be to give them a hidden, untradable Advance before the game begins that is a prerequisite for the building.
 
First of all:
imba?


In a real siege, 'fully cutting off' a defending city/fortification isn't essential - what's essential is preventing enough supplies/reinforcements from reaching the defender. They basically boiled down to starving the defenders out, taking it by treachery, or being forced to withdraw (due to their own supply problems or other logistical issues, or due to enemy reinforcements). Of course, Civ is fairly incapable of properly depicting logistical issues and a real siege anyway ....


It would be impossible to starve out the defenders, or cut out supplies, without cutting off the city itself. In a smaller scale, this could mean destroying critical railroads, and in a large scope, this could mean occupying major river routes, and blocking off sea, and open areas as well as major roads.

Siege represents this situation. I think perhaps if each refugee specialist required only 1/2 food a turn, this would represent "starving out" a city better.


Of course, this also represents critical time objectives. You'd have to take out the CEs before they can set up the siege, or else you're in a tight spot. Of course, being under siege would also mean that your own units can't enter until you take out the CEs that are orchestrating the siege. This, in essence, objectifies the game even further, which real war was all about. Objectives, and completing them.

Save your major cities? Or attack to lift sieges on your smaller cities? Tactical decisions beyond building what unit and sending them where, that's what I looking for.


I'd probably also make it that sieging a size 30 city is almost infinitely harder than sieging a town. Maybe increase the build time, the larger the city?



And also, like I wrote before: Their ten turns can be reduced by both industrious and stacking effects. Maybe it should be normal stacking benefits rather than +50%. Anyhow, you toss men, defenders, horses to extend your forward defense, and have 3~4 CEs to choke their capital until they croak.

This brings more options to the table than, caveman-like "we more, we kill" strategies. You have a defensive war on one front, and can send a small strike force of men by boats, to their coastal capital, or to their critical resource city, then set up a mini SoD with plenty of CEs to lay siege on their cities and kill off their population. With luck, your min-SoD will hold out against the enemy assault, and you'll make yourself an nice little siege on the enemy capital.

Take out their capital, and you'll cripple them. Or, it should at least skyrocket enemy WW.



Their ability to minefield was intended to produce a way to funnel enemy amphibious assaults into an area you wanted it to. Note how you'll have to leave yourself an opening as well, or else you'll blockade yourself. In Archelapego maps, this could mean the difference between the enemy landing on a mountain five tiles where you expected them to, or torn apart by artillery fire and having infantry and tanks wait for them as they funnel all their transports into the only non-mined coast on the island.


Spoiler :

Rome's advantage was *not* that their legions were significantly better than the opposing forces. Their advantage was that their state and their economy was robust enough to through enough adaptable hordes of well-equipped Heavy Infantry - in an age where most forces would have comparatively lightly armed/armoured Heavy Infantry, or Medium and Light Infantry - at their enemies until they won.


Not to mention the organization, standardization, and discipline of their troops enabled reliable, effective, yet flexible tactics for any situation. And their equipment themselves were much better than their sword-wielding barbarian counterparts. The lorica segmentata provided some of the best protection in the ancient world, and was the predecessor to plate mail. They were also equipped with the tower shield that nearly covered them, and instead of just tossing their legions the biggest sword the Roman officers could find at their me, they gave them short, efficient and maneuverable short swords, which had incredible synergy with their massive shields as as a block and stab combo. Legions were very much better than their opponents in their equipment, flexibility and reliability. (Rome Total War teaches you a lot, huh?)This is reflected in their added defense point.


But I felt their organization had to be reflected in their offense as well, and I also felt the best way to reflect that was to greatly increase their city assault capabilities. This also has synergy with their added defense point, as the Legionary suddenly transforms from guys you harass until they attack your city into guys you desperately try and knock off before they reach your city.

 
First of all:
imba?
As Bucephalus guessed, it means imbalanced.

It would be impossible to starve out the defenders, or cut out supplies, without cutting off the city itself. In a smaller scale, this could mean destroying critical railroads, and in a large scope, this could mean occupying major river routes, and blocking off sea, and open areas as well as major roads.
You don't need to completely cut off the city, though - you just need to prevent any major supplies from getting *in*. The amount of food a single person can carry in will sustain a fighting man for maybe two or three days; since you'd have to have a real supply column to actually resupply a fortress or a city, you mostly just need to keep watch for that, and center your forces on the places they can enter from.

Save your major cities? Or attack to lift sieges on your smaller cities? Tactical decisions beyond building what unit and sending them where, that's what I looking for.
Strategic decisions, actually - Civ features no tactical decisions whatsoever, unless you include deciding which tile to strike from, and even that would be a strategic decision.

And also, like I wrote before: Their ten turns can be reduced by both industrious and stacking effects. Maybe it should be normal stacking benefits rather than +50%. Anyhow, you toss men, defenders, horses to extend your forward defense, and have 3~4 CEs to choke their capital until they croak.

This brings more options to the table than, caveman-like "we more, we kill" strategies. You have a defensive war on one front, and can send a small strike force of men by boats, to their coastal capital, or to their critical resource city, then set up a mini SoD with plenty of CEs to lay siege on their cities and kill off their population. With luck, your min-SoD will hold out against the enemy assault, and you'll make yourself an nice little siege on the enemy capital.

I can see the point behind it, but you realize it'll probably break the game? Considering how incapable the AI is, this would really only be at all fair against a human opponent, and I'm not sure you could get the AI to use CEs.

Their ability to minefield was intended to produce a way to funnel enemy amphibious assaults into an area you wanted it to. Note how you'll have to leave yourself an opening as well, or else you'll blockade yourself. In Archelapego maps, this could mean the difference between the enemy landing on a mountain five tiles where you expected them to, or torn apart by artillery fire and having infantry and tanks wait for them as they funnel all their transports into the only non-mined coast on the island.
If that's all you want, wouldn't a Fortress-like construction with a Defense penalty (if that's possible) work better?


Not to mention the organization, standardization, and discipline of their troops enabled reliable, effective, yet flexible tactics for any situation. And their equipment themselves were much better than their sword-wielding barbarian counterparts. The lorica segmentata provided some of the best protection in the ancient world, and was the predecessor to plate mail.
When the Celts had the opportunity to armour up, their equipment was qualitativly better than the Romans' gear, at least earlier. By the time Caesar invaded, the Celts in Gaul had actually fallen a fair bit. RE: Roman Banded Mail: It was a fairly late invention, though - it didn't come into play until nearly the AD; for most of the Roman conquests, they were using Hamata (aka Chainmail) or Scale. Chain was in fact the standard-issue armor, even after the banded mail was developed.

They were also equipped with the tower shield that nearly covered them, and instead of just tossing their legions the biggest sword the Roman officers could find at their me, they gave them short, efficient and maneuverable short swords, which had incredible synergy with their massive shields as as a block and stab combo.
The Roman Scutum was not terribly big by ancient standards - the Greeks' Hoplite shield covered much the same area - but I will grant that it's particular shape made it very effective for the sword-and-board combination the Romans used. Something else to note is that later on in the Imperial age, the Romans changed from the gladius to the longer spatha.


(Rome Total War teaches you a lot, huh?)
As long as you don't mention Head Hurlers, Arcani, Bull Warriors, Flaming Pigs, ridiculously overpowered archers and underpowered slingers, pajama-clad easterners, Old Kingdom Ptolemaic Egyptians, or anything else that that CA completely screwed up on.

But I felt their organization had to be reflected in their offense as well, and I also felt the best way to reflect that was to greatly increase their city assault capabilities. This also has synergy with their added defense point, as the Legionary suddenly transforms from guys you harass until they attack your city into guys you desperately try and knock off before they reach your city.

Looked at from another point of view, it turns the Romans from a pretty good civ with a moderately powerful UU into a civ that can obliterate others thanks to an overpowered mechanic. It's a *very* powerful ability in the hands of something you're supposed to mass-produce, and if you weaken it such that it's not extraordinarily powerful, I have trouble seeing it being useful at all, as simple assaults would be more efficient use of the units.
 
I like the idea of the Mongol unit being a LB replacement. There's tons of knight upgrades, no good to have some variety.
 
Looked at from another point of view, it turns the Romans from a pretty good civ with a moderately powerful UU into a civ that can obliterate others thanks to an overpowered mechanic. It's a *very* powerful ability in the hands of something you're supposed to mass-produce, and if you weaken it such that it's not extraordinarily powerful, I have trouble seeing it being useful at all, as simple assaults would be more efficient use of the units.


Well, Legions would not be as effective in siege warfare as a good ol' fashioned CE, for one.

Two, This essentially means that you can starve out a city until it drops from, say 7, to 5, to give you the edge before you attack. It's not like you'd have to starve them down to pop: (2) before you attack.
Three: Make them more expensive? Like near CW levels?





On a side note:

Arcani were fudgingg awesome, no matter how historically inaccurate they were.
 
Well, Legions would not be as effective in siege warfare as a good ol' fashioned CE, for one.
And that just makes the ability less useful - if they're not as good at it as CE (who already take 10 turns to set it up), then why bother using the ability since you'll get better and faster results simply by attacking?

Two, This essentially means that you can starve out a city until it drops from, say 7, to 5, to give you the edge before you attack. It's not like you'd have to starve them down to pop: (2) before you attack.
For me, in the rare occasion it pops up, either Catapults or just camping out on their hunting grounds is easier. Especially since, again, you don't have to wait to start the starving, it'll happen as soon as you get the troops on the ground.

Three: Make them more expensive? Like near CW levels?
Huh? What do you mean? (Looks up "CW" ...) ... Did you mean the Gallic Warrior? In any case, making the Legion more expensive is not something I said, and I'm not sure how you got it.

Arcani were fudgingg awesome, no matter how historically inaccurate they were.
Arcani were ... interesting. Not terribly powerful, small, and take too long to get (on top of a 2-turn build time) ... but interesting. For anyone who's reading along and doesn't know what we're talking about, Arcani in Rome: Total War are essentially Roman Ninjas. Yes. :crazyeye:
 
Yeah, yeah. I mean GW... for some reason, I was thinking them as Celtic Warriors.



See, I can think of several useful applications for siege: When you're up against Hoplites or Numidian Mercenaries and they're in a size 10 city, or something. Anytime when you know you're going to sustain heavy losses just by attacking, there's an alternative.

Or when you're a small country, and you don't have very many units, sieging can be an effective method to actually do damage.


...Maybe there should be something, like, military units eat up food as well.
Oh, that makes sense. If you're up against way too many units for you to handle, sieging and starving them out is always an option.



My goal here is to offer alternatives.
 
Citizens of different nationality may actually abandon your city to join the invading army if they are of the same nation, or they really admire the army's culture, when faced with siege.

This raises the question of what kind of unit they should become. It would make sense to turn them into the most advanced attacking unit available to the besieged city up to and including (perhaps especially) the guerilla. If they are technologically behind, then they would be less advanced as units joining the enemy; on the other hand, if the attacking civilization is more advanced, it also makes sense that the attacking units might have enough "surplus" gear to equip the rebel more modernly. Such units would, of course, in any case be conscripts. Your thoughts?
 
Well, I wasn't thinking of civilians walking up to the army, and saying, "Hi we, want to join up"


I was thinking more along the lines of, ":):):):) this :):):):), I don't want to be starved out by my own country, let's go join them." And then the population is reduced, and those people who leave are dispersed into your country.
 
Although it wasn't uncommon for the besieger to refuse refugees from the city: Caesar, when besieging Alesia, refused to let the women and children forced from the city through his lines, and left then to starve in the no-man's land; and I know that any commander worth his rank would be very wary of people leaving their own city to join the enemy. Those people are usually called traitors, and unless they prove very useful (opening up a sally port or somesuch) or have been cultivated beforehand (quislings), probably should not be trusted.
 
There's a siege tower unit in the mods section of this very forum, which in my old custom mod I gave to the Romans as an armored catapult with more power than the usual 'pult. It could red-line troops easily. Bit odd for use in the field, but the stats made more sense when bombarding a city.
 
Well, I wasn't thinking of civilians walking up to the army, and saying, "Hi we, want to join up"


I was thinking more along the lines of, ":):):):) this :):):):), I don't want to be starved out by my own country, let's go join them." And then the population is reduced, and those people who leave are dispersed into your country.

Then the rogue would still likely be attacking as the most advanced available unit, or (in retrospect of my original comment), one with the best weapons available to the civilian, particularly in the medieval or early industrial phase of the game--think of the classic pitchfork-wielding mob.

Also, there is a chance that they may be noticed by the besieger, who would then recognize them as an ally.

In any case they could potentially tip the balance of power more toward the besieger. It would be an interesting experiment in game terms.
 
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