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Making "Slavery" more interesting [ACCEPTED]

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by raystuttgart, Mar 25, 2020.

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Does this concept for improving Slavey sound interesting?

  1. No, I rather keep the current gameplay for Slaves.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Yes, it will improve gameplay for Slaves.

    100.0%
  1. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Hi guys,

    I have to admit that currently gameplay for Slavery is a little dull. :think:
    Thus I would like to change that and have come up with a concept that is also low effort to implement.

    I am mainly talking about gameplay for Native Slaves and African Slaves.
    But I would also like to improve gameplay for Petty Criminals and Indentured Servants.

    For those of you that do not know details of "Learning by Doing" (LbD) a short explanation.
    It currently has 3 sub-features that are XML-configurable (for Units):
    • "Become Expert" (deactivated in XML for Servants, Criminals and Slaves)
    • "Become Free" (only activated in XML for Servants and Criminals - not Slaves)
    • "Fleeing" (only activated in XML for Servants, Criminals and Slaves)
    General Idea:

    First of all I want to make it balanced, that is why the gameplay for "Slavery" will get a new positive effect and a new negative effect.

    Negative Effect:
    I would now like to introduce a new component to LbD: Revolting (XML-configurable)
    This would also introduce 2 new Units:
    • "Revolting Criminal" (for "Petty Criminals" that revolt)
    • "Revolting Slave" (for "Native Slaves" + "African Slaves" that revolt)
    • both Units: Combat Units, with low military strength, not capturable
    • AI similar to "Barbarians" in Civ4
    Positive Effect:
    I would also like to give Slaves a chance to become "Freed Slaves".
    This would also introduce 1 new Unit:
    • "African Slaves" could become "Freed African Slave" (similar balancing as "Converted Native")
    • "Native Slaves" would simply become "Converted Natives" (which already exists)
    Concept Details:

    A) Current behaviour:

    Petty Criminals + Indentured Servant
    • using LbD "become Free" they can become normal Colonists
    • using LbD "Fleeing" they can run away and be recaptured again
    Native Slaves + African Slaves
    • they can not use LbD "become Free" (for balancing reasons)
    • using LbD "Fleeing" they can run away and be recaptured again
    B) Intended new behaviour:

    Petty Criminals + Indentured Servant
    • using LbD "become Free" they can become normal Colonists
    • using LbD "Fleeing" they can run away and be recaptured again
    • new: using LbD "Revolting" they can run away as Unit "Revolting Criminal" (that fights and cannot be captured)
    Native Slaves + African Slaves
    • new: using LbD "become Free" they can become "Converted Native" / "Freed African Slave"
    • using LbD "Fleeing" they can run away and be recaptured again
    • new: using LbD "Revolting" they can run away as Unit "Revolting Slave" (that fights and cannot be captured)
    C) Balancing:
    • Chances for "become Free": Indentured Servant > Petty Criminal > African Slave / Native Slave
    • Chances for "Fleeing": African Slave / Native Slave > Petty Criminal > Indentured Servant
    • Chances for "Revolting": African Slave / Native Slave > Petty Criminal > Indentured Servant
    D) Possible Impacts on other Features:
    • Civilization Traits / Leader Traits could affect chances for Lbd "Become Free", "Fleeing" and "Revolting"
    • Founding Father Traits could affect chances for Lbd "Become Free", "Fleeing" and "Revolting"
    • Civics / Techs could affect chances for Lbd "Become Free", "Fleeing" and "Revolting"
    Effort:
    • DLL implementation and XML configuration is quite easy and low effort.
    • However, this will require a few new Unit Graphics
    New graphics needed:
    • Unit "Freed African Slave" (3D Unit, 2D for City and Button)
    • Unit "Revolting Slave" (3D Unit and Button, no 2D for City)
    • Unit "Revolting Criminal" (3D Unit and Button, no 2D for City)
    All other graphics should stay unchanged.

    Benefits:

    Gameplay should become a bit more historically authentic, more consistent and more interesting.
    We could also use some of the graphics Schmiddie has already created.

    I am looking forward to feedback. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
    Atlas627, Hibernian and Mr. ZorG like this.
  2. oldmole1984

    oldmole1984 Chieftain

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    That's a good idea.
    I try to solve the same problem,
    I used the private version that changed "globaldefinesalt,xml".

    1.immigration_max_cross_limit
    400->2000(TAC)
    2.immigration_thereshold_increase
    10->20(vanilla)
    3.immigration_thereshold
    10->5(vanilla)

    The goal is to reduce immigration overflows,
    To increase the value of no-free immigrants and slaves.

    However, I was in trouble because it didn't work out.
    I welcome raystuttgart's change.
     
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    This is not related to immigration. :dunno:
    (I currently have no intention to change general balancing of immigration.)

    It is only related to the Indentured Servants / Criminals and Slaves you already have.
     
  4. oldmole1984

    oldmole1984 Chieftain

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    I understand.

    Does the problem of immigration be solved by suppressing the cross bonus?
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    There was a messed up Crosses bonus of "Expert Priests", which I already corrected internally. :thumbsup:
    (Instead of the normal 100% the Expert somehow had become 200% Bonus ... :dunno:)

    This should heavily reduce the amount of Immigrants you will get. :thumbsup:
    The currently published beta you most likely play is quite different compared to the heavily improved development version.

    Summary:
    I can only ask for a little patience until we publish our current release. :(
    (There is still a bug in the new Text / Translation System that needs to be fixed.)
     
  6. oldmole1984

    oldmole1984 Chieftain

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    I will play as soon as the beta version is released and write an AAR for WTP dissemination.

    I am always grateful for your effort.
     
  7. lethiel

    lethiel Streaming Col at https://www.twitch.tv/lethiel01

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    Revolting slaves sounds great. There should be an event too where all the slaves in a settlement revolt at the same time and you get 1-2 turns of disorder, right? Chance of event should increase by the ratio of slaves/ (free people + X*military units) in the settlement.
     
  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Possible, but currently not really planned. :thumbsup:
    (My todo-list is long enough.)

    Generally it is technically not difficult to do but still a bit of effort:
    A) Implement a DLL-Function "int getNumberOfSlaves()" for City
    B) Implement a DLL-Funtion "voidDoSlaveRevolt()" for City
    C) Make both Functions available for Python
    D) Implement the Trigger and Event using the Functions in Python logic
     
  9. Cueball252

    Cueball252 Chieftain

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    I straight out love the idea. I often just delete slaves i get gifted at the moment.
     
  10. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Warlord Supporter

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    Does that include slaves and criminals running away as before - only if in a city - or when walking through the wilderness, too?
    It always struck me as strange that those guys start running from within my cities, but when they are alone in the middle of the woods they are as loyal as royal oak...
     
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    In the current development version Slaves are not allowed anymore to take any other outside Profession than Colonist (so they can walk to another City).
    (So they can not become Pioneers, Scouts, Missionaries, Soldiers ...)

    That should be good enough? :dunno:
    (Anything else will most likely just add technical complexity and effort and little benefit for gameplay.)

    Sure, you can have them walk around uselessly on the Map forever, so they will not run away.
    But then you could also simply just delete them straight away.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
    Atlas627 likes this.
  12. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    The civic proposal contains an idea about how to treat slaves. If we are to implement either, we better coordinate the ideas to make sure they will actually work together in case we end up with both at some point.
     
    Atlas627 likes this.
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I know. :thumbsup:

    That is why I wrote this:
    I did not see any conflicts in my concept considering "Revolting" or "Become Free" of Slaves with Civics. :think:

    In fact I believe the Civics will even be enriched by the possibilities this concept will add.
    (Because it will implement base functionality and Units the Civics can simply use to implement modifiers for them.)

    But yes, every new base feature (as this one is) will have impact on things like Traits, Civics, Techs, ...
    We of course need to find out if they add possibilities (positive case) or restricitons (negative case) or unresolvable conflicts (worst case).

    In this case I think it is possibilities (positive case). :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  14. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    I'm don't know if there is a conflict or not. What I'm saying is that we need to verify that there isn't any conflict before actually doing anything. Sometimes you verify that things are as expected just to be sure.
     
  15. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Chieftain

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    I don't like this proposal - gameplay is not great with RNG slaves escaping . I would prefer to see no escapes by random chance and instead new events introduced with mass escapes and rebellions.

    Also, am I right in thinking that slaves have to become free before they can become experts?

    If I am right then I suggest: Allow slaves working on plantations (and mines/farms and fishing) to progress directly to an expert. Currently it is a better strategy to put a free colonist there (sacrificing production) in the hope they become expert. This is suboptimal game design - a new player would not know to do this.
     
  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I always kind of liked it, because it added a bit do gameplay. :dunno:
    That is also a balancing topic though, to prevent "Slave strategy" becoming too strong.

    I would still need to implement most of the base functionality above.
    The events could be added later on.

    Yes. :thumbsup:

    I do not really like that, it makes "Slave strategy" too powerful.

    Well, "good game design" is also a matter of personal taste of course. :dunno:
    But by the way: "Slavery" is described extremely well in Pedia (for Units and Game Concept).
     
  17. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Chieftain

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    Not that I would ever accuse you of being bad at designing games - of course I am talking in a general sense.

    Currently a tile could be occupied with a slave who could at some point become free ->productivity decreases.

    If this (slave to expert) leads to slaves being overpowered then reduce them in some other way. I don't think it is unreasonable that players would expect workers (slaves or not) to progress in a positive manner in the same way as improvements.
     
  18. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Slaves can currently not become free. :confused:
    (Petty Criminals can become free though.)

    And when they become free, e.g. a "Freed African Slave" will be balanced like a "Converted Native".
    (And "Native Slave will become a "Converted Native".)

    "Converted Native" (and then also "Freed Slave") has more bonusses than "Normal Colonist".
    And they will not flee and not revolt and can become an Expert.

    That is a pretty good trade off, if you ask me. :dunno:

    They do progress in a positive manner. :confused:
    Why do you believe that they do not?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  19. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Chieftain

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    Because it won't be the best strategy to use them.

    The best option would always be to use a free colonist because they have the best chance of getting you an expert quickest.
     
  20. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    True, but
    A) Slaves are really cheap.
    B) Slaves have plot production bonusses from the start.

    It is a trade-off:
    Normal Settlers -> Faster Progress to Expert
    Slaves -> Cheap Mass labour

    Both strategies are valid:
    They just have different advantages and disadvantages.
    It simply depends what you prefer.

    The difference between current system and new system:
    Current: Slaves can never become free and thus never experts.
    New: Slaves can become free and thus experts at some point.

    So I really do not understand the problem. :dunno:
    I just do not want to make "Slaves Strategy" overpowered by directly allowing them to become Experts.

    Summary:
    A good game should offer different (valid) strategies for different game situations.
    Not just one "single best strategy" for all game situations.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020

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