Malakim Desert Mechanics

[Ozcor]

At the risk of going too simple, how about the following?

Unique Improvement: (Available w/Education [possibly w/Trade instead but that might be too limiting, if more thematic)

Nomad Camp - 1/0/1
built only in desert

Improves as Cottage to:

Caravan - 1/0/2

Bazaar - 2/0/3 (2/0/4 w/Currency)

Grand Bazaar - 2/0/4 (3/0/5 w/Currency)

Of course, some sand worms would be fun, too.

 

[TravellingHat]

I confess I don't know much about the forthcoming Empyrean faith, so my GPP idea may indeed be more appropriate to the religion than the race.

In which case, if a more mercantile solution is preferred, how about a small chance for plain deserts with roads within Malakim borders to spawn a resource (incense, reagents, ivory, horses, sheep (since there's no goat resource), dyes, blasting powder)? That could then be developed as usual, but the city owner will need to feed any population working the tile, so no unbalancing of the food situation.

 

[cephalo]

In which case, if a more mercantile solution is preferred, how about a small chance for plain deserts with roads within Malakim borders to spawn a resource (incense, reagents, ivory, horses, sheep (since there's no goat resource), dyes, blasting powder)? That could then be developed as usual, but the city owner will need to feed any population working the tile, so no unbalancing of the food situation.

That's rather interesting, I'm thinking that the resources spawned this way should be specific desert resources that only the Malakim can uncover, but once uncovered and improved, anyone can use it. That way they still have something that needs to be defended. The Malakims stewardship can boost the value of the open desert over time, including for their potential conquerors.

 

[nealhunt]

If you improve desert tiles (improvement/resource/whatever) then you have to consider what happens when terraforming is used to improve the tile?

Unless it in some way forces the tile to stay desert, it would still be better to come along and improve the underlying terrain and you're back to the Malakim having no deserts.

 

[TravellingHat]

Hadn't considered terraforming, to be honest. I am reminded, however, of the joy after the first time I upgraded a desert oasis to grassland.

 

[cephalo]

If you improve desert tiles (improvement/resource/whatever) then you have to consider what happens when terraforming is used to improve the tile?

Unless it in some way forces the tile to stay desert, it would still be better to come along and improve the underlying terrain and you're back to the Malakim having no deserts.

I'm not yet entirely familiar with the rules for terraforming. Is it possible to terraform land that you don't control? If not, then the responsibility falls on the Malakim to prevent that from happening. I suppose the spread of hell is the same for everyone right? Ok, I'll stop there. I'm still very new to this mod and haven't even played a full game yet.

 

[TravellingHat]

If the Malakim had high priest of FoL or an archmage with Nature III, they could cast Vitalty (is that it?) on the desert tile repeatedly. It'll then change to plains, then grassland, adding +1f/+1h or +2f to the tile. Doing that to a desert oasis or flood plains already yields a great food resource, and add to that the bonus from any improvement and you can have extremely valuable tiles. Thus, it would be in the Malakim's interests to do this if capable, and wouldn't be a case of an outside party doing it (which they couldn't, as I believe the spell can only be cast within borders.

They would lose their desert move/combat benefits, but that may be a tiny trade-off against improved food.

However, perhaps this ought to be allowable. After all, nothing prevents terraforming a town on a floodpalin up to a super commerce/food producing tile.

 

[MrUnderhill]

However, perhaps this ought to be allowable. After all, nothing prevents terraforming a town on a floodpalin up to a super commerce/food producing tile.

You may be right, but I think there should still be a reason for the Malakim not to terraform that tile.
That's kind of why I like my passive food bonus idea up above; it's something you can't get from plains or tundra, so while you can terraform the tile into something more productive, now you have to waste a potential specialist to work it. It turns into a trade-off between the benefits of terraforming and the benefits of leaving the tile alone, and these dichotomies are one of the reasons strategy games are so fun; you can try it one way, then the other, and see what happens.

 

[Rickie_Rain]

Okay, let's merge some ideas to make deserts more viable.

I'd like to see Malakim getting 1/1/1 working any desert tile. They are the nomad people of the desert and even though deserts in general are empty, humans are adaptive by nature. Given some time, different ways to find both material and food are almost always developed, that is, assuming the human does not die doing so. Anyways, some food can be found and as for material there are always areas with a few rock islands, just like there are oases every here and there.

In combination a Malakim city should gain one free food for every desert tile worked, limited to city population. How does that make sense then? Well, the commerce in the earlier suggestion is a result of our good nomadic people trading to be able to work out there in the first place.
The extra food however is precious, and as a people with knowledge of the desert, making everything count through various ways of cooking, treating and spicing is only possible in the city. Perhaps a road should be required for this food bonus.
Make road add one food in desert instead?

Anyways, Ozcor's idea of nomad camps is nice but should naturally be tweaked if used with, for example, my previous idea. A thing to add would be that you can NOT build 2 camps next to each other. Assuming a city is built with all tiles desert, this would provide a total of 6 nice improvements.

I also nod in favor for Malakim being more likely to discover new resources in any desert tile.

I must add feedback on Malakim combat now though. See they get +20% attack & defense....but plain desert is already -25% . I think they should be good fighters in their homeland, and having a defense penalty of 5% is kind of silly even though there also is the double movement.
I think the defense bonus should be raised to 25% or 35% to at least compensate for this. Moreover, Malakim cities built in desert should not have the -25% penalty either because I can't simply comprehend how a wall can be any better in grassland than in desert, let alone a city wall.

Seems my brainstorm comes to a halt as my belly brawls with my head, good afternoon.

 

[xienwolf]

Heh heh. Ancient Desert Mechanic with a chance to spawn a 3 turn long "Sandstorm" creature (comperable to the Treant) would be nifty And could make an Ancient Desert provide the same terrain resources as Plains would, and not be upgradable by Vitality/Genesis.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

I like the idea of a specail desert unit spawning to defend the Malakim. Perhaps whenever a malakim unit is attacked in desert there is a 10% chance that a Sand Lion appears.however, also giving malakim 2 food on each desert tile from desert herders would be good.

 

[zxcvbnm]

How about this: The Malakim get food from their trade routes (1food/1gold) as was proposed earlier, with a maximum of x where x is the number of desert tiles in the fat cross ONLY this city can work. So the max would be 20 food, allowing 10 population in trade cities, leading to 10 specialists if there's nothing worth working. Oasis and resource tiles would be counted as desert but floodplains won't. If you terraform the desert you have to work the tiles but you can get better production. The ONLY-limit unables ICS and gridding to get max production from deserts and encourage building cities apart from each other.

Plains are 1,1,0 so they are "better" than desert but a city in plains can grow to only 2 without farms, so terraforming to plains isn't so useful, and you lose specialists. Farmed plains are better but they need a river, ie floodplain which already gives lots of food with the expense of lesser amount of free food.
Of course as long as the city has trade routes. Sieges are a REAL problem for such cities but the malakim have the desert bonus that can help to prevent them.

A city like this: (X=floodplain, . =desert, C=city)
. XXX
. . . . .
. . C. .
. . . . .
. . . .
Would get 17 free food from trade with the desert.
Would get 9 food from floodplains.
And 6 food from farms to a total of 32, Allowing 16 population.
Of them 3 work the farmed floodplains and 2 work resources in desert, leaving 11 specialists.
Of whom most are merchants, resulting in
HUGE AMOUNTS OF GREAT MERCHANTS AND GOLD
Just like real life trade cities

But the city ain't too big to get happiness problems as the malakim have some luxuries they trade

 

[Calavente]

issue is getting lot of trade routes from tiny cities..that have nothing else than 1 incense and 3 Floodplains...
if desert gives food .... then 17free food for a pop 1 city is a lot...

no idea though

 

[zxcvbnm]

Actually what issue?
Small cities don't usually get so much gold from trade and it can always be lowered like 1f/2g or 1f/2desert. As the city won't have so much production the trade buildings will take some time to build, and only then the trade routes would give that much food.

 

[Calavente]

no, the issue is the reverse :
in a big city with 20c from trade routes it is worthwhile if in desert+malakim you can have 10F/10c instead. the issue is getting to the point where a crappy city in the desert may earn 20c with trade routes...

how can you get up to 10F from trade routes with a tiny city (less than 7pop) ?? with almost no specialists/buildings as there is no production... with Overlords and agriculture you could use pop to make buildings and get up to 3*7=21F =10pop max.
then 2 trade routes with 1commerce as this city is still a crapy city :
total 22F : 11 pop. (with 4 trade routes it goes 12pop )

the difficulty will be into using this excess pop to generate culture/food/commerce/production to get higher commerce through trades routes==> more food.

but maybe I misunderstood your proposition about food from trade with desert...

 

[zxcvbnm]

The trade routes will still give all the gold but ALSO the equal amount (or half) food to a max of desert tiles in the fat cross
In my late games large cities usually get 5-7 gold per trade route so it's 4 routes to get that 20 food. Smaller ones get 3-4 gold to about 10 food/city, allowing 5 specialists.
With right civics you can hurry the trade buildings with you excess gold to get the cities grow
Wiki doesn't work so can't check the exact numbers and buildings, but the figures are relatively accurate

 

[Calavente]

I'd rather have malakim see desert as 1/1/0...
and have a special improvement in desert doing 1/0/1 : nomadic camp,
small chance of finding incense/ivory/horse/cow if worked. (1/10.000)
small chance of finding special 'desert medicine' seeable only by malakim, appearing only with random chance on worked nomadic camp. (chance 1/2000 or 1/1000) ressource gives 1/1/3 or 1/0/5 ...

or ozcor's solution : but with malakim's desert = 1/1/0
Nomad Camp - 1/0/1 built only in desert improves as Cottage to:
Caravan - 1/0/2
Bazaar - 2/0/3 (2/0/4 w/Currency)
Grand Bazaar - 2/0/4 (2/0/5 w/Currency) (3/0/4 w/trade)

 

[Calavente]

No
The trade routes will still give all the gold but ALSO the equal amount (or half) food to a max of desert tiles in the fat cross
In my late games large cities usually get 5-7 gold per trade route so it's 4 routes to get that 20 food. Smaller ones get 3-4 gold to about 10 food/city, allowing 5 specialists.
With right civics you can hurry the trade buildings with you excess gold to get the cities grow
Wiki doesn't work so can't check the exact numbers and buildings, but the figures are relatively accurate

that is generaly true... when you are not desert dweller malakim
in desert you have (base) no food, no production, no commerce. desert heavy cities are poor !!! (unless you find the spot with : 1-2gold, 3floodplains, 1incense, 1oasis) so you will never have the means to build buildings to get specialists. you will never get the commerce to get profit from trade routes.

-you can have some prod by finding marble, or going RoK and changing gold into copper, by using slavery (go neutral) or sacrifice the weak (go evil), mining desert hill for no food and you don't always have some
-commerce comes from rivers, gold, incense
-food comes from floodplains...a lot ==> only riches in desert.

but malakim are to be able to be played as good desert lovers...not only neutral-evil people living close to desert.

your size 10 city with 4-5commerce from trades routes is one of your smaller cities, isn't it ???
for the malakim desert dweller, it is it's best ever capital !!!
so to keep malakim loving desert, their should be something more... something that increase desert profitability in order to make "big" or at least powerful cities and not once you have the big cities...

 

[zxcvbnm]

The idea is that
1. the desert must keep (relatively) unimproved, because a desert full of pastures or bazaars is silly and nomad camps require some space to wander around, can't be next to each other.
2. if desert is given 1,1,0it would still be not enough as the city can grow only to size 2 and would require ICS to enable the people
3. if desert is 2,1,0 it's far too much, better than grasslands
4. you can't make malakim citizens work 2 desert tiles each
5. as discussed before, real life desert cities gain most of their food from trade-> trade routes bring food.
6. as the food is free, the cities can grow quite fast if they have trade routes
7. trade routes mustn't bring food to non-desert cities, to keep them loving desert-> desert requirement
8. they mustn't be able to abuse this with ICS gridding-> ONLY-limit encouraging sparse (realistic) city placing
9. i agree that their production would be slow so deserts should have more resources and features like hills that give extra prod (i think that stone could be returned in some form, perhaps as sandstone, desert-only bonus resource allowing quarries)
10. malakim desert city tiles could have some bonus
11. caravan, bazaar etc. could be malakim unique bildings increasing trade (->food), so could be nomad camps giving perhaps +1 food from deserts
12. the big cities are meant to resemble aslo the nomads outside them

OR then the malakim would just get 0,5 free food to the centre tile per every desert in fat cross, as the nomads live there, and 0,5 extra to a max of 10? from trade routes

 

[White Elk]

Unique Improvement: (Available w/Education [possibly w/Trade instead but that might be too limiting, if more thematic)

Nomad Camp - 1/0/1
built only in desert

Improves as Cottage to:

Caravan - 1/0/2

Bazaar - 2/0/3 (2/0/4 w/Currency)

Grand Bazaar - 2/0/4 (3/0/5 w/Currency)

I like this proposal the best. Though I would like to see a hammer in there somewhere and don't think the deserts should ever produce 3 food. Maybe instead of the Grand Bazaar getting 3 Food with Currency, it could instead get +1 Hammer with Engineering or Machinery. As far as terraforming goes.. it could work the same way as the Bloom spell works. You can't cast Bloom if there is an improvement in the tile. You have to pillage it first. Perhaps Nomad Camps and the Spring spell could work the same way.

Another idea would be for Malakim workers to be able to build certain improvements on deserts like the elven workers can build in forests. At the very least they should be able to build something like a windmill in the deserts. They need something.