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Malaysia wades into the MH17 debate

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by innonimatu, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

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    Remember flight MH17? In Malaysia the PM this week accused the Netherlands of having filed to produce evidence for its claims in the report last year.

    Bellingcat happens to be a propaganda venue very much involved in the claims about who used chemical weapons in Syria. They just got a nice half million euros from the dutch for their public services. Its involvement is the thing that makes me wary of some of the report. Public claims of attribution depended on very disputable data they promoted.

    As for Mahathir , it has already been claimed that is is old and presumably " fond of conspiracy theories".

    It would be nice to see the "legal and convincing evidence that would stand up in a courtroom" really presented in a courtroom and analyzed. But these disputes between states seldom get to that stage. And even when they do, we've seen that past events remained contested (recalling Lockerbie).
     
  2. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    I'm not too familiar with the details but why would Ukrainians fire a missile at a plane traveling west to east? I'd think it would be batteries to the east responding to a plane coming at them from the west whereas Ukrainians would be wary of planes coming at them from the east.
     
  3. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    And jet fuel can't melt magic bullets while flying through the Van Allen belt either.
     
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  4. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Whoever did that, I'm 99% sure it was done by accident. And accidents like that don't require plane flying in particular direction, nor even ongoing combat actions:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
     
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  5. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Russians fired the missile. More specifically, when the Soviet Union was formed, the borders between Ukraine and Russia were kind of arbitrarily drawn. Now that has about a 1000 years of history behind it. But what was true was that people who considered themselves ethnic Russians and people who considered themselves ethnic Ukrainians were living on both sides of the border. Many people who considered themselves Russians, but were living in territory officially Ukraine. And this didn't matter in the USSR, but did matter after the demise of the USSR. In ongoing disputes between Russia and Ukraine, Putin decided to encourage ethnic Russians in Ukraine to break off from that country and join Russia, taking the land with them. As part of that, he gave these Russian separatists Russian Army antiaircraft missile batteries. But not the necessary training to use them correctly.

    It was these Russian separatists, using Russian supplied Russian Army equipment who shot down the airliner.
     
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  6. r16

    r16 not deity

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    who were also practically set up . ı am particularly amazed by airliners that stray 200 kilometers and the like in the age of GPS .
     
  7. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Warlord

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    Only they were not. It was well on route when shoot down. The air space above the war zone was closed only below 30,000 feet or so, since there was not way a plane flying above that altitude could be hit by any weapon the rebels had, until the Russian lend them the SA-11 that morning.

    It is well stated that it was an ID error by the rebels/russians. Shortly after the accident they claimed to have shot down an Ukrainian military transport at Russian social networks, the post being quickly deleted after they noticed it was an airliner.
     
  8. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    All of this was established by Bellingcat, which is as reliable on the matter, as Russian government sources.
     
  9. Samson

    Samson Warlord

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    The data that Bellingcat used was all available publically, and well referenced. It was not them just saying it, like some other parties in this dispute. Unless the evidence can be specificallt refuted I would suspect this statement by the Malaysians is what is politically motivated.
     
  10. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Major part of data used by Bellingcat was taken from social networks, it was not a proper investigation. Basically, anyone can pull thousands of unverified evidences and images from social networks, keep the ones which fit to your pre-defined agenda and throw away ones that contradict it. And come to any conclusion you want.

    Consider also the fact that British-based agency focused exclusively on cases like MH-17 shootdown, Scripal poisoning and Syria chemical attacks. That they never find British or US government guilty in anything.
    In addition to the Wikileaks reports that Bellingcat is being financed by British MoD, I think we can conclude that this agency is far from being impartial in their investigations.
     
  11. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Yet, everything 'alternative' news media uses has used the same types of 'investigative research' as Bellingcat, find British or US government guilty in everything (and never Russia), and get the same type of awards for 'outstanding investigative research' that Bellingcat received (Bellingcat wasn't the only one to receive that award and helped in breaking those stories)

    It is possible Bellingcat uses sources from 'western' intelligence agencies. You'd be naive to think it's not possible 'alternative media' that always blamed British or US government for everything weren't also financed or given information from Russian intelligence. Two can play this game.

    Wikileaks has tweeted that claiming they said Bellingcat is financed by British MoD is false.

    Like the trade deal Malaysia and Russia brokered just a few days earlier.
     
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  12. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    That's my point. If you don't trust 'alternative' news media, you have no reason to trust Bellingcat either.
    There was a proper investigation conducted by missile manufacturer, with examination of plane remains, establishing type of missile and tracing the region where it was launched from.
     
  13. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    As if that missile manufacturer wasn't a bit biased. The purpose and bias of the 'study' was stated in the study's very first paragraph. To paraphrase since I don't have time to go look it up again: "We have been accused of producing and supplying this weapon during the time there was a ban on them and since we are being sanctioned for it, here is why it wasn't us".
     
  14. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Warlord

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    :rolleyes: So you decided to trust the least reliable source. Brilliant.
     
  15. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    I didn't say the source was unbiased...

    ...and I didn't say I trust biased sources. I said that you do.
     
  16. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Warlord

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    Yep, you also said it was a "proper" investigation. Probably it was just the opposed to "proper".
     
  17. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    What makes you think the investigation was "improper"? Except the fact that it was done by the Russians and you don't like conclusion.
    And what makes you so confident that Ukraine could not shoot down the plane by accident?
     
  18. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Amazing how a missile company, with little to no experience in plane crash investigations, can do something real plane crash investigators can't do.
     
  19. Old Hippy

    Old Hippy Chieftain

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    would that be deciding who fired the missile....because if that can not be known....
     
  20. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Missile company has experience in determining exact type of missile, its orientation at the moment of explosion and tracing location where it was launched from.

    The cause of crash has been established, the plane was shot down by Buk SAM. Problem is that these SAMs are possessed by both Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine had several Buks deployed in the area. Rebels shot down few Ukrainian planes before and after the crash, but used different types of SAMs.
     

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