Mammon, what is he god for? Huh!
- Thread starter deadliver
- Start date
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Mammon was the Angel of Foresight, primarily in the practical every day aspects of seeing the likely consequences of one's actions so that one may choose to act in such a way as to help society as a whole.
Since his fall, he has become the God of Greed, and his sphere has changed so that it only seeks to help the individual instead of (are even at expense of) the rest of society, and so that it only really cares about the near future. Utilitarian ethics haven't worked so well since his fall. Mammon is a god of plots and conspiracies and he is very closely allied with Esus. He seems quite deceptive, but he is not nearly as violent. Esus seems closer to Aeron than Mammon does.
I would not call Esus a more pleasant character. I think the differences between the Council of Esus and their allies in the Stewards of Inequity is that the Council would have you stabbed in your sleep while the Stewards would just rob you and not care if that means you'll starve to death. The mind sphere tends to show apathy towards others rather than malice, and while it has no compunctions about hurting others that is never really its goal. Mammon's followers tend to be "white collar criminals" who would not risk acting directly lest they get caught. Esus would be a compulsive liar and criminal while Mammon would choose to tell lies or the truth based on whatever suits his interests. Esus's hell has also been described as the cruelest trap of hell, as he delights in deceiving others and making them loose their faith in all they ever loved.
Since his fall, he has become the God of Greed, and his sphere has changed so that it only seeks to help the individual instead of (are even at expense of) the rest of society, and so that it only really cares about the near future. Utilitarian ethics haven't worked so well since his fall. Mammon is a god of plots and conspiracies and he is very closely allied with Esus. He seems quite deceptive, but he is not nearly as violent. Esus seems closer to Aeron than Mammon does.
I would not call Esus a more pleasant character. I think the differences between the Council of Esus and their allies in the Stewards of Inequity is that the Council would have you stabbed in your sleep while the Stewards would just rob you and not care if that means you'll starve to death. The mind sphere tends to show apathy towards others rather than malice, and while it has no compunctions about hurting others that is never really its goal. Mammon's followers tend to be "white collar criminals" who would not risk acting directly lest they get caught. Esus would be a compulsive liar and criminal while Mammon would choose to tell lies or the truth based on whatever suits his interests. Esus's hell has also been described as the cruelest trap of hell, as he delights in deceiving others and making them loose their faith in all they ever loved.
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
So did he become a god, or was him being an angel a typo?
As far as I know, there is only one real god, the one. All the others - Lugus, Bhaal etc. and also Mammon - were originally archangels, each of them provided with controll over one aspect (in Mammon's case for example foresight->greed).
However, since the one is...absent, the archangels, being quite powerful anyways, are as close to "God" as it gets.
Your confusion is probably due to the fact that the archangels in turn created other minions and "archangels", like for example Hyborem to Agares. Moreover, some of these even rose through the ranks later on.
Your standard Erebusian however has not even the tiniest idea about the actual truth behind "gods" and "archangels", so for everyday life Mammon and the rest are gods.
(Well, that's my idea of it, but probably someone else can still explain it better ^^)
On the topic of Esus or Mammon being meaner: I would say Mammon is. Esus is a backstabber, granted. But at least, you can rely on him or his followers sooner or later trying to stab you. With the Stuarts, matters are more complicated...
Off topic: Yep, this is a first post. By a long-time lurker, admitedly.
Normally, I would now start bragging on and on about how good the mod is or how grateful I am to you for creating it. But in this case, I will spare you, Kael and co., all that. You know you did a great job. I know you did a great job. That's it
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
It depends on how one defines "god." All gods but The One are really just angels. The Luonnatar would adamantly oppose calling anyone but The One a god, while less enlightened people like the Lort brothers consider angels of Basium's stature gods.
I purposefully used angel to refer to him before the fall since he was still in the service of The One then and god afterwords since The One had left and the original angels whom The One had put in charge of a precept came to be known as gods. Before The One departed none of the angels really tried to pass themselves off as gods (except for Agares, who never let the inhabitants of his own world of Nyx learn of The One or of his fellow angels), but afterwords even the good angels/gods did as they interpreted The One's departure to mean that he did not want humanity to know about him.
Edit: ninja'd by the new guy.
The gods/angels were never called archangels though. The "arch" denoting a high ranks wouldn't have made sense since there were no other angels until after The One left and so there could have been no lower ranking beings that could be called angels (although there were already animals, elementals, and humans). In early versions of the lore I think all true angels including the gods' archangels (which had a couple alternate titles taken from different old D&D campaigns) were created by The One and the gods were just those given leadership over the angels in their precepts, but that was changed by the time Nemed was added to the early pantheon.
Also, Agares didn't exactly create Hyborem, but made him from a corrupted reflection of Cernunnos. Agares is the only god who has never created any angels, although he has corrupted so many created by other gods that his army is by far the largest. He also made many inhabitants in Nyx before his theft of the gems of creation was discovered, but he destroyed them all and reduced this most glorious world to ash when his rebellion was uncovered.
I purposefully used angel to refer to him before the fall since he was still in the service of The One then and god afterwords since The One had left and the original angels whom The One had put in charge of a precept came to be known as gods. Before The One departed none of the angels really tried to pass themselves off as gods (except for Agares, who never let the inhabitants of his own world of Nyx learn of The One or of his fellow angels), but afterwords even the good angels/gods did as they interpreted The One's departure to mean that he did not want humanity to know about him.
Edit: ninja'd by the new guy.
The gods/angels were never called archangels though. The "arch" denoting a high ranks wouldn't have made sense since there were no other angels until after The One left and so there could have been no lower ranking beings that could be called angels (although there were already animals, elementals, and humans). In early versions of the lore I think all true angels including the gods' archangels (which had a couple alternate titles taken from different old D&D campaigns) were created by The One and the gods were just those given leadership over the angels in their precepts, but that was changed by the time Nemed was added to the early pantheon.
Also, Agares didn't exactly create Hyborem, but made him from a corrupted reflection of Cernunnos. Agares is the only god who has never created any angels, although he has corrupted so many created by other gods that his army is by far the largest. He also made many inhabitants in Nyx before his theft of the gems of creation was discovered, but he destroyed them all and reduced this most glorious world to ash when his rebellion was uncovered.
KillerClowns
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,139
I dunno about Mammon being less vile than Esus. Mammon's closest followers, the Balseraphs, are sadistic SOBs, and I can see that extending to Mammon himself. I can see Esus as being manipulative, but not needlessly sadistic. I envision Mammon, as the God of Mind, reveling in torture, specifically torture of a fundamentally psychological nature, with physical torture merely being added in to help break the victim's mind utterly.
WarKirby
Arty person
What do you need money for? There are plenty of wild deer out there in erebus.
I'd rather be robbed than assasinated. Plenty of ways to get food without money.
WarKirby
Arty person
Torture seems to be more camulos' thing
KillerClowns
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,139
Physical torture is definitely Camulos' song. I'm talking more about psychological torture; sleep deprivation, forcing a victim to relive his most painful memories, using their phobias against them, et cetera.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Psychological torture is more Ceridwen's thing, as she is the goddess of (emotional) pain and obsessions.
I get the impression that Mammon's archangel Hastur, the Lord of Nightmares, is likely a sadistic lover of psychological torture, but not really Mammon himself. Mammon strikes me as extremely rational although megalomaniacal, while Hastur is the crazy one.
I get the impression that Mammon's archangel Hastur, the Lord of Nightmares, is likely a sadistic lover of psychological torture, but not really Mammon himself. Mammon strikes me as extremely rational although megalomaniacal, while Hastur is the crazy one.
KillerClowns
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,139
Hastur was probably what was coloring my impression of Mammon. I suppose gods aren't always like their archangels; Basium comes to mind here as an extreme example...
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
I thought Hastur was busy with Water god/angel/it (Danilo I think?) making Hemah function. Ceridwen's vault is all about psychological torture right? Removing all hope about their past and loved ones.
You can always trust a dishonest man. A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest, honestly. It's the honest one's you have to look out for because you never know when they are about to do something incredibly... stupid. (stabs undead pirate in back)
You can always trust a dishonest man. A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest, honestly. It's the honest one's you have to look out for because you never know when they are about to do something incredibly... stupid. (stabs undead pirate in back)
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Hastur, the Lord of Nightmares, is currently in Danalin's vault whispering in the ear of the sleeping God of Water and corrupting his dreams. He does not control the Overlords, but he has some influence over them and is indirectly responsible for their existence. He is also likely the demon who raped Lita the Witch and therefore the father of Mardero and his brothers.
Ceridwen doesn't really have a vault. Her vault is the space and connections between all other vaults. It is infinite, and has no space whatsoever. Souls don't really spend any time in her vault as part of their training, they just pass through for infinitesimal moments while going from one vault of hell to another. She may also be responsible for the memory loss that most souls experience whenever they pass to the next vault.
Removing hope about one's past and love ones is closer to Esus's vault, which is designed to make those who try to escape hell think they have returned to life but become disillusioned about all they once stood for when they find the illusion of their old life to be vacuous. Just like the existence of counterfeits reduces the value of real currency/collectibles/whatever, Esus's deceptions are designed to make us not care for the truth.
Ceridwen doesn't really have a vault. Her vault is the space and connections between all other vaults. It is infinite, and has no space whatsoever. Souls don't really spend any time in her vault as part of their training, they just pass through for infinitesimal moments while going from one vault of hell to another. She may also be responsible for the memory loss that most souls experience whenever they pass to the next vault.
Removing hope about one's past and love ones is closer to Esus's vault, which is designed to make those who try to escape hell think they have returned to life but become disillusioned about all they once stood for when they find the illusion of their old life to be vacuous. Just like the existence of counterfeits reduces the value of real currency/collectibles/whatever, Esus's deceptions are designed to make us not care for the truth.
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
Where are Danalin's angels? Why aren't they killing Hastur?
Ok, I got Ceridwen's and Esus's vaults confused. Replace what I said about about Ceridwen with Esus. Because that sounds like some pretty nasty psychological torture. It ruins our view of our past and beloved.
The only major example of psychological torture I can think of with Ceridwen was Kylorin
Ok, I got Ceridwen's and Esus's vaults confused. Replace what I said about about Ceridwen with Esus. Because that sounds like some pretty nasty psychological torture. It ruins our view of our past and beloved.
The only major example of psychological torture I can think of with Ceridwen was Kylorin
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
They probably are trying to stop him, but Hastur has demons under his command helping him too. The only Angel of Danalin we really know anything about is Condatis, who most certainly is trying to defeat Hastur. From what Condatis told Falamar, Hastur was very much involved with getting Tebryn to to destroy creation, largely as a distraction to prevent Danalin's angels from saving him.
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
Um...
He is trying to destroy the world to distract some angels? He sounds like a really pleasant fellow...
How did he get into the vault with his demons to begin with? Weren't the angels guarding Danalin?
He is trying to destroy the world to distract some angels? He sounds like a really pleasant fellow...
How did he get into the vault with his demons to begin with? Weren't the angels guarding Danalin?
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
Probably the same way Mammon's Demons attacked Oghma's vault and turned it to ruinous state it is in right now. Basically, Mammon is corruption, and Corruption tend to spread. Scholar's thirst for knowledge made Oghma's vault vulnerable for Corruption to be spread.
Danalin, I am not so sure, I would be needing MC or the KC or perhaps even Kael to explain this
Danalin, I am not so sure, I would be needing MC or the KC or perhaps even Kael to explain this
Similar threads
