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Man Murders Nine in Charleston Church

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheezy the Wiz, Jun 18, 2015.

  1. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    But Nazi Germany maintained a continuity in the form of the current German Federation, which is not regarded as an entirely different nation-state. And most people have no problems with that. Similarly, there is nothing inherently wrong with a Southern cultural and regional identity. However, there's plenty that is wrong with the Confederate flag as a symbol and an identity marker.
     
  2. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    That is the part which I find so contradictory.

    Say someone is contending that he thinks the Civil War was justified in term of so-called states rights. That he really believes there are those in the South who were vehemently opposed to slavery but still willingly took up arms against the tyrannical North to oppose its brutal oppression of Southerners at the time (ignoring for a moment that doesn't make any sense at all).

    Why would that person want to willingly associate with a symbol that is clearly representative of white supremacy and hatred? A symbol which is now the favorite dog whistle of most every Southern racist in the US? Wouldn't he want to pick some other symbol just to differentiate himself from all the hatemongers?

    But what would it be? Perhaps there really isn't any appropriate substitute, so they feel they have no choice.
     
  3. illram

    illram Deity

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    The simple answer is people don't like being associated with racists, so people who for whatever reason identify as "southern" on that level make stuff up.
     
  4. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Apparently so.

    But shouldn't they try to find some other symbol to represent their views? Or do they have no choice?

    How about this?



    I wouldn't mind at all if Southerners wanted to wave that at football games and NASCAR races, even though I don't see how they need "restoring". It is even patriotic.
     
  5. illram

    illram Deity

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    People can choose whatever they want, but I retain the right to call them out if they're choosing something racist. Even if they want to pretend it isn't racist.
     
  6. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy Deity

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    Contending that this is all one thing or all the other is a sign of a simple mind. Laudable perhaps, but wrong. Like a fundy. Seems to be a popular state of mind going more mainstream with twitterspace, like you said.
     
  7. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    My high school teams were the Rebels. We specifically did NOT use any confederate flag imagery out of respect for our black students...and we understood that was the right thing to do forty years ago. There are crossed sabers, the grey "slouched flat top" cap...any number of things that have not been totally co-opted by the "keep racism alive" crowd.
     
  8. illram

    illram Deity

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    I'm contending that it is what the people who created it and then made it popular say it is. Of particular additional importance is how black people perceive it, a point of view you are continually marginalizing by insisting it is something else.
     
  9. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    The Union Jack was created to symbolize the union of the Scotland and England. The Confederate flag was specifically created to symbolize white supremacy.
     
  10. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy Deity

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    It's got over a century and a half of history stemming from mass slaughter. It's not going to mean the same thing to the same people as you change years much less different people over different years. You don't believe me, fine, but you're missing out on a cultural shift that's sped up since the last round of drafting in this country when we finally grouped together in a desegregated military in all the dregs this country saw fit to offer up to a political land war in Asia. Call it a form of bonding amongst the used by institutional bias. That is not universal, it is not universally understood, but it's there. Go look up hick hop if you really want to. But those folks don't have the numbers to be as loud as the side that decrees it simple and themselves summarily the right. Because something so stupid as "it was made for this, that's the only thing it can stand for, symbols don't change meaning."
     
  11. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    I think UNLV and Ole' Miss are called The Rebels. I don't know what their logos or other symbols look like.

    (That's University of Nevada at Las Vegas and University of Mississippi, for those non-Americans in our audience.)
     
  12. Oruc

    Oruc Reactionary

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    Doesn't the US flag have alot worse connotations than the confederate battle flag?
    The confederate flag supposedly represents slavery, while the US flag represents imperialism, militaristic interventionism, interference with political systems to the point of sponsoring coups in sovereign nations and some more stuff.
    The Confed flag had a small window of true infamy and very small reach, while the US flag continues to be associated with heinous actions to this very day and it's reach extends across the world.
     
  13. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Well, I think you should have changed the symbol of your school instead...

    There is a school in St Pete called Dixie Hollins High School. They were 100% white. They were also called the Rebels. And their school symbol was the Confederate battle flag.

    When the schools in the county were forced to integrate in the late 60s by court order students and parents literally surrounded the school in pickup trucks proudly flying the CBF, and they defied the authorities to integrate the school.

    The authorities obviously won. But the school is still named Dixie Hollins. The name is still the Rebels. However, the official emblem is now this:



    And their web page goes out of its way to have at least one black in nearly every single photo on its home page, all going to school together in apparent complete harmony. The truth is somewhat more ambiguous.
     
  14. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    Quartz Hill is a long way from St Pete. Desegregation actually never happened here, as our schools were never segregated, and the whole "rebels" business was never that big a deal. Even in the current climate of racial conflict, of which we have our share, no one seems to be particularly concerned about it.
     
  15. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    Both of these statements invoke the same argument, which is often used to defend the Confederate battle flag. It's essentially changing the subject rather than defending the flag on the merits. This isn't about the "N" word or the Union Jack or the Red star or anything else. It's about the Confederate battle flag. Are people saying that they support continued official use of the Confederate flag? Or are they making the only slightly more nuanced (somewhat cowardly) argument that "oh well I don't support it personally, I just support the 'states rights' to display it"? This isn't about what will hypothetically happen if we stop using the Confederate flag, and trying to make it about that is just like the people who want to make gay marriage rights about hypothetical beastiality marriage.:rolleyes:
    You hear the phrase "term of endearment" applied alot, but its actually simpler (or more complicated depending on your perspective) than that. It's not a "term of endearment". Its an insult. When black people say it, its still an insult. But like any group-specific insult, it becomes acceptable (like an inside joke) when members of the group use it on each other. Any racial/ethnic/gender etc slur is less offensive when used by members of the group it targets. When one irishman slurs another with an irish-targeted slur it can be seen as an expression of belonging and in-group identity expressed through a "friendly" or "inside-joke" insult. Its really that simple.
    This is another subject-changing canard that is repeatedly recycled in defense of the Confederate flag and is easily dismissed this way...

    The Union Jack, Old Glory, (any currently used national flag) etc, is the current national flag of a country and as such, MUST be used. So whether the US flag or Union Jack are offensive is irrelevant and trying to analogize them to Confederate Flag on that ground is illogical and ridiculous.
     
  16. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    How can you say that this isn't about what would hypothetically happen if the Confederate flag was banned, given that this is clearly about calls to ban the Confederate flag? I really don't see how you're managing to draw a beastiality comparison here.

    And also... you really think that someone who supports the rights of others to do things they personally don't like is "cowardly"? I guess you're not much of a fan of free speech either then.
     
  17. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    Government speech and individual freedom of speech aren't quite the same thing. Literally just a few days ago, SCOTUS issued an opinion on Texas Dept of Motor Vehicles v. Sons of Confederate Veterans, regarding Texas' decision to not allow Confederate flags on its license plates (the Court backed Texas). Naturally, the decision was 5-4, on mostly partisan lines - the normally-conservative Black justice sided with the liberals on this one. iirc, the Court sided with the Nazis who wanted to march in Illinois on free speech grounds (also freedom of assembly, but that's not relevant here), but they were a private group.
     
  18. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Yep. Clarence Thomas decided to vote as a black man who has been the victim of racism and oppression himself for a pleasant change, instead of as an authoritarian reactionary as usual. It must have been difficult for him to break from his nearly spotless record of voting the wrong way on virtually every issue he has ever faced which wasn't unanimous.
     
  19. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    I say that the Confederate flag is a racist, treasonous symbol and US state, local and federal government entities should not display it. The Confederate flag defenders sidestep whether the flag is a racist, treasonous symbol, and sidestep whether or not it should be displayed in an official capacity by the government... and instead they respond with "If you ban that then why not ban the Union Jack and the Hammer and Sickle?" Huh???:confused: Talk about banning the "Red Star" is a blatant attempt to avoid/change the subject. That's what people always try to do when this topic comes up. They try to defend by changing the subject into absurd, irrelevant hypotheticals.

    And no I am not a fan of racist speech, although I do acknowledge the right to use it. Acknowledging the right to free speech is not the same as approving or defending the content of everyones free speech. People often try to conflate the two. I am generally suspicious of people trying to hide behind "supporting free speech" in order to avoid condemning speech that deserves condemnation. I often find that they secretly approve of the offensive speech, but lack the courage to endure the scorn that goes along with admitting their true views.

    That's why I try to avoid putting myself in the "I don't like what you say but I will defend to the end your right to say it" position. I prefer to say to Confederate flag defenders "Your position is wrong. If you want to defend it then go ahead, that's your right and your burden, not mine. I'm not going to waste my breath defending your right to insult me."
     
  20. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Already addressed in this thread. Please keep up.
     

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