1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Man Murders Nine in Charleston Church

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheezy the Wiz, Jun 18, 2015.

  1. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    15,262
    Location:
    Here and there
    Going forward, let's have more of this
    and less of this

    Explain why the comparison is wrong instead of just repeating that the comparison is wrong.
     
  2. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Messages:
    9,233
    Location:
    NorCal
    Assuming you mean comparisons of the Conf flag and the US flag...

    The US flag has ~200+ years of history and it represents the whole of the nation, good and bad. It's not tied to a specific 5 year period of time which, in turn, is even more closely tied to a very specific national issue.

    The Conf flag/battle flag/who-cares-about-the-semantics-as-we-all-know-the-broader-tie-in is tied SPECIFICALLY to the 4+ years of the Civil War and a govt/army that fought to tear the Union in 2 SPECIFICALLY to defend the institution of slavery and the principles of white supremacy.

    Hope that helps.
     
  3. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    8,207
    How do you manage to often find out people's secret thoughts and motivations? It is possible you just assume them? Is it that hard to believe that some people genuinely would support the rights of other people to say or do things that offend them personally? Some people are just very uncomfortable with trying restrict and silence other people who don't think the same way they do because the idea of behaving that way is even more abhorrent.
     
  4. illram

    illram Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,218
    Location:
    San Francisco
    It is currently still used by white supremacists and racists. I'm not just cherry picking anecdotal things in its past to ascribe meaning to it. This meaning is very real and very intentional on behalf of many people who currently use it.

    But I understand you feel I am not qualified to comment on reality since I live in some elitist ivory tower above the clouds, or because I am just stupid. How about black people? Are black people wrong to be offended by it? Or to consider it disrespectful and/or derogatory? When polled, twice as many blacks have a negative reaction to it as whites. 61% of blacks in South Carolina want the flag removed from government buildings. You either have to argue that their feelings are misplaced--good luck on that one--or that your desire to have it remain displayed outweighs the feelings of someone whose ancestors were enslaved by the political apparatus that used that particular flag. Taking either of those positions is to me unreasonable.
     
  5. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    15,262
    Location:
    Here and there
    I think that cinches it for me, I'm convinced.
     
  6. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    46,747
    I already was, but if I hadn't been that would have done it.
     
  7. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald 老任森林

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    6,041
    Location:
    The end
    Sorry, I haven't really kept up with this thread, but why are you discussing flags in a thread about a shooting?
     
  8. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2006
    Messages:
    15,602
    Because there is a national reaction to the shooting to remove Confederate symbols like those the murderer venerated from state identifications (like license plates) and state government buildings.
     
  9. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    10,378
    Location:
    On the internet
    Well clearly black people should just move on with the times and get over it, just like southerners have

    oh... wait :sad:
     
  10. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald 老任森林

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    6,041
    Location:
    The end
    I don't understand why you didn't outlaw those flags after your civil war
     
  11. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    46,747
    Me neither, frankly. There are plenty of exceptions to freedom of speech. I would think "flag of vanquished enemy" would be a reasonable thing to eliminate. No one seems to consider German citizens to be particularly oppressed by the Nazi symbol ban.
     
  12. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    6,045
    The Confederates started the bloodiest war in American history to, by their own admission, defend slavery. They killed so many people and caused such destruction, yet the Union government, in the interests of peace, gave them incredibly lenient terms. Even after many ex-Confederates joined a terrorist organization that murdered thousands of black people and Republicans, even after the brutal massacre of black Union soldiers and Republicans in New Orleans in a completely overlooked atrocity, the Union insisted on peace and clemency, with war criminals and terrorists like Nathan Bedford Forrest being allowed to live free of consequences for their atrocities and visit Union leaders and their wives for tea. For eleven years, the Union struggled to ensure black men had the right to vote in the South, but a terrorist campaign and fierce political resistance from the traitors prevented this from being exercised effectively, and after the compromise of 1876 the Union gave up and left the black Southerners to their fate.

    If the flag had been outlawed, the traitors like Davis and Forrest been punished, and the rights of freedmen protected, yes, there probably would have been a lengthy guerrilla war. But that would have been the choice of the unrepentant traitors, not the Union, and it would not have been a war the terrorists could have won.
     
  13. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    33,999
    Location:
    USA #1
    That's the way we roll.

    I guess everybody expected them to eventually stop fighting the Civil War, and put away their symbols of white supremacy and secession out of shame. (Or at least boredom.)
     
  14. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2008
    Messages:
    46,777
    Location:
    US of A

    You can make the claim that the US flag has a mixed message. The Confederate flag has one message: Evil.
     
  15. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    6,681
    Gender:
    Male
    According to Brad Paisley, it mostly just means he's a Skynyrd fan. :lol:
     
  16. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    19,692
    Location:
    Sydney
    /faceplam
     
  17. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,492
    Gender:
    Male
    One could also view the Confederates as those protecting the autonomy of the states against the Federal government and slavery as an unfortunate side issue that marred the importance of other Southern issues such as Northern economic dominance.

    May be hard to maintain considering some high profile leaders motivated the secession in part or completely with racism, though in most conflicts, both sides are morally grey. Even the World War II axis powers had decent aspects to them such as Japan's sheltering of Jews and Finland's fight against Soviet aggression.
     
  18. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    20,814
    The problem is that is a completely after the fact interpretation.
    The traitors started shooting explicitly to preserve an institution dedicated to the idea certain people by the color of their skin are inferior and whose proper place is property.

    It is like someone saying they are flying the Nazi Swastika to commemorate the composer Carl Orff or a corporatist economic policy; or someone flying the Union Jack as a symbol of good food.
     
  19. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2008
    Messages:
    46,777
    Location:
    US of A

    You could say that if you were into rewriting history to serve your political agenda. Slavery was the only issue that the Civil War was about. They said it themselves.
     
  20. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald 老任森林

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    6,041
    Location:
    The end
    Which is a silly cause that should be made rid of.
     

Share This Page