Man Sued for Protecting His Property

My guess would be testimony. And yes, if the plaintiff can't prove that the woman actually was kicked, he'll lose on the battery cause of action.

And brandishing assault weapons and threatening people is also a crime. It's called "assault," and the prosecutor even admitted that there's probably sufficient evidence to bring charges for it.

Cleo

Ahh...however, wouldn't the castle law in my state cover this person? As he has suffered countless thefts, destruction of private and leased property, and probably a host of other threatening acts, I would think he could prove his life is in danger every day...

Agreed you can't pull an M4 on someone and threaten them off your personal property, but on it? In light of the precedence along the border, the case is easy it seems.

~Chris
 
By your definition, they're rights of citizens. By the definition used in American law (see, e.g., 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1983), under which this suit was brought, they are the rights of "persons."

Civil specifically means "of or proper to a citizen."

The word is only used in the U.S. Constitution to refer to Civil Offices, i.e., positions in the civilian government, which would require citizenship.


That law states that citizens or persons have the right to sue over the violation any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws; it never says civil rights. I never claims that non-citizens don't have rights that should be protected, just that these rights cannot properly be classified as civil rights.



Isn't "making it so that everyone must earn citizenship" just another type of regulation?

Sure.

By must earn citizenship, I of course only mean in order to gain citizenship. I don't have a problem with residents of the U.S. choosing never to become citizens.

I never said that I was opposed to all regulation, but I consider regulations granting additional rights to persons on the basis of the circumstances of their birth over which they had no control as opposed to based on their choices and merits to be unjust. The only fair way would be to make attaining citizenship be a contract between the state and each individual applying for citizenship, instead of some nebulous "social contract" to which a party is bound without consent, or where simply not committing treasonous acts is considered tacit consent. For practical purposes the state should limit citizenship to those who have shown themselves capable of making educated decisions over the course the nation should take. For the sake of fairness it should provide the means to attain the needed level of, but not mandate it on anyone. The citizenship of those who have committed egregious crimes should be revoked. It is entirely proper for Congress to set the standards needed for one to become a citizen or for citizenship to be revoked, but standards that give preference to certain people over others on account of happenstance are not good standards.

The first sentence of the 14th amendment would of course have to be revoked in order to implement it in a way I consider to be just. I don't think there would have been any legal issues with my approach (except for the extreme difficulty of getting such a law passed by a population of those who didn't earn their citizenship and think they have a right to it) before this amendment was passed.
 
Illegal immigrants should be protected from gross abuse, certainly, but they shouldn't expect any civil rights if they don't have proper citizenship. This man does indeed deserve a medal.
Agreed, with all your points.
 
Ahh...however, wouldn't the castle law in my state cover this person? As he has suffered countless thefts, destruction of private and leased property, and probably a host of other threatening acts, I would think he could prove his life is in danger every day...

Agreed you can't pull an M4 on someone and threaten them off your personal property, but on it? In light of the precedence along the border, the case is easy it seems.

~Chris

Maybe, maybe not. Do you know the details of Arizona's Castle Doctrine? It's not a carte blanche to commit torts on trespassers. Usually it only pertains to self-defense in the home, and if the person is facing some kind of immediate harm.

(After looking it up), Arizona's statute applies to "residential structures" and "occupied vehicle." Not property. I don't know of any Castle Doctrine statutes that extend to property (though there may very well be some).

Civil specifically means "of or proper to a citizen."

The word is only used in the U.S. Constitution to refer to Civil Offices, i.e., positions in the civilian government, which would require citizenship.

That law states that citizens or persons have the right to sue over the violation any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws; it never says civil rights. I never claims that non-citizens don't have rights that should be protected, just that these rights cannot properly be classified as civil rights.

Sorry about the cite. That's just the part of the Civil Rights Act that provides a cause of action. I'm just used to typing 42 USC 1983 to refer to civil rights legislation. :)

By all means, if you want to argue that U.S. law uses the word wrongly, go ahead. I won't stop you. My point was only that the article used the correct legal term.

By must earn citizenship, I of course only mean in order to gain citizenship. I don't have a problem with residents of the U.S. choosing never to become citizens.

I never said that I was opposed to all regulation, but I consider regulations granting additional rights to persons on the basis of the circumstances of their birth over which they had no control as opposed to based on their choices and merits to be unjust. The only fair way would be to make attaining citizenship be a contract between the state and each individual applying for citizenship, instead of some nebulous "social contract" to which a party is bound without consent, or where simply not committing treasonous acts is considered tacit consent. For practical purposes the state should limit citizenship to those who have shown themselves capable of making educated decisions over the course the nation should take. For the sake of fairness it should provide the means to attain the needed level of, but not mandate it on anyone. The citizenship of those who have committed egregious crimes should be revoked. It is entirely proper for Congress to set the standards needed for one to become a citizen or for citizenship to be revoked, but standards that give preference to certain people over others on account of happenstance are not good standards.

The first sentence of the 14th amendment would of course have to be revoked in order to implement it in a way I consider to be just. I don't think there would have been any legal issues with my approach (except for the extreme difficulty of getting such a law passed by a population of those who didn't earn their citizenship and think they have a right to it) before this amendment was passed.

Well, I guess you and I disagree. I think that America's "anyone can come here and be American" philosophy is one of the primary reasons why it's as wonderful as it is today. You know: the Statue of Liberty and all that. (Of course, my ancestors came through Ellis Island, so take my opinion for what you will.)

Cleo
 
Roger Barnett:

rambo.jpg


I understand your concerns, but your approach basically says to sexual predators: "you can do what you want, so long as there's no physical evidence."
That's always been my motto.

This guy sounds like a complete redneck, racist, militant gun-toting idiot: in other words, the worst of every American stereotype. He also sounds like he was absolutely justified, with the exception of kicking the woman, if it happened. He was not justified to point his gun at children, if that happened, and I believe it did. I have no proof of that whatsoever, just going with my gut.

Maybe they'll be given his ranch in compensation.
 
I always assumed to get rights guaranteed by the US constitution you had to be a US citizen. I thought the "people" was "We the People of the United States..." I'm not saying you don't have rights if you are a noncitizen in America just that you don't have constitutional rights.

How do you determine who is a citizen and who isn't? Really? I'd really like to know. Are we required to carry around birth certificates, voting card etc, proof of citizenship at all times are we? No we're not. That is based on a supreme court case I believe.

This is what I don't get. How is a police officer or any other agent of the law supposed to know who is a citizen and who isn't? Who has rights and who doesn't?

Do you think cops on the street can stop people and demand to see proof of citizenship, residence or whatever and then proceed to strip search them without probable cause because they can't prove they are a citizen/resident? Come off it people.

Yeah! How dare someone leave their house with out their papers in order! No rights for them!
 
Or what if you take a trip to Canada, or Europe, or even Mexico? No rights for you!
 
Double post...
 
Form, I would normally agree with you, but the man was justified in preventing trespassing. The kick was not. Even as a citizen, I have no right to knowingly trespass.
 
At least the illegals who complained are now known to the authorities. Hopefully they'll be handed to Mexican authorities so they can enjoy lenghty prison terms.
 
At least the illegals who complained are now known to the authorities. Hopefully they'll be handed to Mexican authorities so they can enjoy lenghty prison terms.

Yeah. Serves them right for trying to escape their hellhole to find a better life. How dare they!
 
Yeah. Serves them right for trying to escape their hellhole to find a better life. How dare they!

Yes, how dare they trespass and steal and vandalize other people's property. How dare they force their way into a country and take resources that don't belong to them. If you care, why not call up the authorities and offer to adopt them, so you can pay for it yourself.
 
Yes, how dare they trespass and steal and vandalize other people's property. How dare they force their way into a country and take resources that don't belong to them. If you care, why not call up the authorities and offer to adopt them, so you can pay for it yourself.

That's right! They should just stay where they are and suffer. Those resources that have been accumulated through multinational exploitation of impoverished societies don't belong to them! Why should they take a small portion of it?

I'd phone the authorities, I really would, but...um...I've got no more credit.;)
 
Do you think cops on the street can stop people and demand to see proof of citizenship, residence or whatever and then proceed to strip search them without probable cause because they can't prove they are a citizen/resident?

Um....yes.

Supreme court ruled that cops do have that right: http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada

“nterrogation relating to one’s identity or a request for identification by the police does not, by itself, constitute a Fourth Amendment seizure.”


“In the ordinary course a police officer is free to ask a person for identification without implicating the Fourth Amendment.”





And on this point
Or what if you take a trip to Canada, or Europe, or even Mexico? No rights for you!


You would still be liable to show proof of identification.

General Travel Information-

A Mexican tourist card is required for visiting Mexico beyond the border cities, or for stays longer than 72 hours. The free tourist cards are available from Mexican immigration authorities at the border and also at Mexican consulates and Mexican government tourist offices in the US. A birth certificate or other proof of US citizenship, such as voter registration, military ID showing place of birth, or passport is required to obtain the tourist card.

Canadian citizens who visit Mexico from Texas should have a passport or birth certificate. Other foreign nationals should have a passport and appropriate visas both for entering Mexico and returning to the U.S.

http://portal.sre.gob.mx/usa/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=111&op=page&SubMenu=
 
Yes, how dare they trespass and steal and vandalize other people's property. How dare they force their way into a country and take resources that don't belong to them. If you care, why not call up the authorities and offer to adopt them, so you can pay for it yourself.

As much as these immigrants might look like some others, there's no evidence that these people stole or vandalized his property. People seem to be imputing to these immigrants the alleged bad acts of all other immigrants. American law simply doesn't work that way.

Cleo
 
As much as these immigrants might look like some others, there's no evidence that these people stole or vandalized his property. People seem to be imputing to these immigrants the alleged bad acts of all other immigrants. American law simply doesn't work that way.

Cleo

That being said Cleo, there is evidence that the Mexican goverment does provide some 'aid' to illegals however you want to define it. I wonder how long until a smart attorney brings a class action RICO action against Mexican goverment officials (note that the goverment itself is immune in US courts).
 
That being said Cleo, there is evidence that the Mexican goverment does provide some 'aid' to illegals however you want to define it. I wonder how long until a smart attorney brings a class action RICO action against Mexican goverment officials (note that the goverment itself is immune in US courts).

As you pointed out, the Mexican government is immune under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, but you could try to shoehorn it into an exception. Commercial activity? Maybe. Maybe something about the "rights in property" exception (though that's directed towards claims about nationalization).

But what are the damages? Someone would have to prove that illegal immigration is harming the United States. If you're just summing up costs and benefits, as you would in a civil suit, it's not entirely clear that illegal immigration is a net negative.

Cleo
 
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