Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by Bobchinski, May 10, 2009.
Does anyone have a picture of the Mana Map?
You mean this? Found it in Xienwolf's sig. If ever in doubt, look there.
At least it's labled. The mana symbols changed to their unique ones awile back, and away from those Forgotten Realms signs.
Odd, I always thought that Dimensional and Enchantment were opposites in a way, though maybe that's because Ceridwen and Nantosuelta were the ones who shifted Kylorin between evil and good.
How do you go from Chaos to Enchantment? I don't see the connection there...
Dimensional and Enchantment are opposites. Enchantment is about purely intrinsic value, while Dimensional is about relational value.
Force really should be in the center imho.
Yeah, that chart went through many forms. Im sure that version is at least a decade old, if not older. Ive never found a version that was perfect as it should show:
1. A central unopposed sphere (metamagic, force, mind and dimensional have been in that slot before).
2. Spheres should exist in lines that relate (death/ice/entropy, fire/sun, earth/body).
3. Spheres opposite each other should be opposed spheres.
4. Inner spheres should relate to those beside them (so Ice is between water and air, law is between sun and spirit, death is between the spirit and shadow).
Its hard to find a good diagram where those all fall out perfectly. Any placement seems to be strong in some aspect and weak in another.
The only problems I see with this chart is force, mind, enchantment, and dimensional. None of those quite seem right...
But if Force is in the center, where is Metamagic? If Metamagic isn't in the center, it means that it has to be opposed by another sphere, right? So, what could possibly oppose metamagic? If Dimensional and Enchantment oppose each other, do Mind and Force oppose each other too? Really, that horizontal line is buggy...
By the way, if I'm looking informations on the mana spheres, should I just look into the lore compendium at the related gods or is there something else on the forum? For example, I'm not quite sure what Force is about, neither what is the difference between Mind and Spirit (well, I think I see what it is... it may be because, in French, those two words are the same).
Force is basically balance. MC had a long explanation of Force, Dimensional, and Creation in the thread of the same name. Very interesting read.
Mind is strength of mind, thought process, and mind control. Spirit is the soul and maipulating it.
(MC will probably correct this)
Mind do not oppose Force anymore than any other sphere does. Force is about balance, so it is the opposite of any sphere when taken too far.
Force and Mind are actually rather close. Kael has stated that Force is bound by Mind and Law, which I think indicates that it overlaps with both of those precepts significantly. Force involves people working together to create mutually beneficial arrangements and then enforcing those arrangements. It is the sphere of contracts. Democratically enacted laws do not actually belong in the Law sphere, but in Force. Making agreements is very close to the Mind sphere, as all parties seek out their own interests and try to use foresight to make agreements that will still help them in the future. In enforcing agreements Dagda is as unyielding as Junil, except of course that if all parties agree he would support repealing an agreement in favor of another.
I tend to think that Metamagic and Mind oppose each other, although they are not exactly opposites and are some ways quite similar. We know that Mammon and Oghma are enemies, and that Mammon's forces have invaded Oghma's vault. A case could be made that Mammon represents the Future while Oghma represents the Past, or at least that they represent a focus on the future or past. Mammon presided over predictions of things to come while Oghma was in charge of preserving and uncovering old knowledge. Oghma's sphere is also very objective while Mammon's is very subjective.
Spirit is mostly about Altruism. Sirona is called the Goddess of Wisdom, but this is wisdom like that which the bible says is seen as foolishness by the world. (Most gods see her like an sweet but naive little sister whose opinions don't really matter. She is generally well liked but almost never given the respect she deserves.) The Body-Spirit dichotomy seems to draw heavily from the New Testament, with Aeron being the embodiment of worldliness and carnal desires and Sirona the embodiment of mercy. Sirona is the only goddess who truly loves her enemies. Wicked men like Laroth distort the sphere to make others act in a loving devotion towards those who should probably be hated and opposed. He takes her selflessness and turns it towards making others harm themselves even when it is not for a greater good. I believe that Spirit could also be corrupted into trying too hard to make others happy and neglecting oneself, but that is probably on the fringe where the sphere overlaps with dimensional.
Mind was originally about Foresight, but is now greed. I think either Mind or Spirit magic can be used to control others, but it is more common with Mind and the mechanisms they use are almost polar opposites. Mind magic confuses others and makes them not recognize their own interests, often by making them place way too much emphasis on obtaining things that may themselves be good but are not as important as what is being neglected. Mind increases and the victim's sense of self interest, while Spirit lessens or negates it. Mind seems quite close to Dimensional, while Spirit is also fairly close to Dimensional but much closer to Enchantment.
That's perfect. I have all my answers, thanks Magister
Oghma and Mammon were also close friends, so a "rivalry of the Spheres" could stem from this broken friendship.
i'm a little surprised there are scales representing death instead of law. any particular reason for it?
Most likely a balancing of the soul...... Look at Egyptian mythology, they did the same thing.
having an opposed diagram would be all well and good, but frankly the nuetrals would tend to mess this up, as only the "good" civs would seem to rival the "evil" civs, except for a possible force and dimensional opposition. Anyways ... I have yet to contruct what I would like to see as fitting.
I can envision the kind of Dagda you have created ... although I still cannot get over the fact that "Force" doesnt force people to do anything. The spell designs handed by people for force magic fits what I would think fits the tangible domain ... although the philisophical domain of force leads me to believe that the Force sphere was a little bit of a garbage bin when it came to ideas. However a very well constructed garbage bin, and moreso than many others as far as I can tell. If it wasnt as such (lucky jumble working nicely) I would be pleasantly surprised from a design point of view. I also understand how it can be hard to standardize something which is a collection of many different stories and sagas, even if many of them were done by a team of writers ...
Edit: maybe you were inspired by *the* force? that may be where the balance comes in to play. I still think of it more as discorporal yet instrinsic uncompromising matter ... sorta like a forcefield or puppet strings. or an invisible stair case ... and so forth
Just switch force and enchantment, and then switch force and metamagic
Maybe, but death here is more about giving up and resigning to let the world go on without you. The judgment one receives in the underworld comes only from one's subconscious.
I would think that Scales would represent Force best, as it is the sphere of balance and the scales are Dagda's constellation. The fist doesn't seem to fit force well.
There is a sometimes significant difference between which spheres are opposites and which good gods were assigned to fight which evil god. The neutrals would not be involved in the second, but would not mess up the first.
It does force people to do things, namely to fulfill their end of a contract. Generally this would be forcing people to do what they had pledged to do of their own free will, but this is also very much the sphere of the social contract. Enforcing a social contract forces individuals to adhere to societal norms to which they have not personally agreed. Force places a much higher value on the general consensus than on individual dissenting opinions, and can force dissenters to go along with said consensus. Also, many contracts have externalities. Dagda does not like that these agreements impose upon those who have not agreed to the consequences, but he accepts it. I expect that it is also Dagda who enforces demonic pacts, and who guarantees that souls loyal to a god go to and become the property of said god. Ceridwen may have been the one who made the deal with Tabryn, but it would be by Dagda's power that he is now unable to repent or defy his goddesses wishes.
The properties of Force and Dagda I didn't mention until this post are what drove Cassiel to rebel against his god and choose to fall.
Personally, I'm not a fan of many force suggestions. I think it is the worst designed sphere in FF, but I guess I lean towards the metaphysical meanings of spheres than their physical representations more than most.
In this image, the Scales represent Death because the Scales held by a Skeletal Arm is the Symbol of Kelemvor, God of Death, and this map was made using signs from Forgotten Realms.
It is beyond me why force is represented by Bane's symbol....
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