mana nodes and cities

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Mithrus, Aug 16, 2007.

  1. Mithrus

    Mithrus Warlord

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    I would like to throw out the idea of adding some token bonus to mana nodes in the event they are inside your city radius. Something like either two hammers (for earth and possibly others) or two commerce. This would at least make the tile workable. Since the AI treats mana nodes as a "resource" and thus tries its hardest to have a city witht he mana node inside, it would just make it more of a bonus than a detriment.

    On a related topic, would you consider changing water mana nodes to also be a source of fresh water. This would be a huge tactical advantage in areas with poor irrigation.
     
  2. Htaed M'i

    Htaed M'i Chieftain

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    I like the idea of making the mana's give you something on that tile. Great idea with the water mana. Maybe earth mana could give you a random metal resource. Life mana could give you heath bonuses. The reverse could be used as well. Meaning death man could give you negative health. Chaos could make the tile a "random" tile. (i.e. desert, plains, ice or anything besides impassible or oceans)
     
  3. vorshlumpf

    vorshlumpf Emperor

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    This has been tried in the past. Having a mana node in your fat X is not a big deal - it's only one tile. Plus you almost guarantee yourself control over it.
     
  4. Ghost Ranger

    Ghost Ranger Prince

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    Yeah I agree with vorshlumpf, the mana nodes are extremely powerful in the fact that they grant the ability to use spells alone; Anymore abilities and they would become too powerful.
     
  5. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    i think the issue is about the AI not making use of the mana nodes. so having it in their city doesn't help them.
    if the AI would cast spells then it would be more then worthwhile, with that single water node they could transform their desert into workable land etc.
     
  6. Mithrus

    Mithrus Warlord

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    The mana nodes in general already provide civ-wide boni. Life does give you +1 healthy, spirit +5% GPP, etc. I was suggesting water being enhanced to be a fresh water source because it would allow a great number of areas that previously could not build farms (due to lack of available water source) to do so.
    I've had several maps that had I been able to build farms the city would have been vastly superior.
     
  7. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    there is the risk that the Ai spam water nodes and no other mana... (if it ever understand that it can creat fresh water through water node)
     
  8. giddion

    giddion Crusader

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    I have seen the AI build a variety of Mana Nodes, but can't recall if they used spells at any stage. This is on Prince.
     
  9. Rex rgis of Ter

    Rex rgis of Ter Me I'm a Creator

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    Mana nodes simply could give different production/food bonuses. This is just a few. Water ,Life, and Nature for 3 food and 1 production. Earth, Body, and Enchantment give 4 production. I don't know which would give gold bonuses.
     
  10. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    maybe not so much...

    as : water body, life nature : 2F,
    fire, earth, enchantement : 2p
    some other : 1f 1p
    some 2-3c
    ...Etc
    that leaves some variations without being overpowered as mana ressource is already a big interest civ wide.

    as such, they are best situated just outside a city fat cross, but for early grabbing or for the AI, you sometimes have them in the fat cross.
    they are no bonus, no improvement tiles. making them really un-interesting inside a devellopped city's fat cross. they are a bonus civ-wide, but a malus city-speaking.
     
  11. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    mana is a great bonus in itself, just to be able to cast the extra spells.

    in the game the main reason i look at conquesting areas is to gain extra nodes, obviously meaning that i value nodes over any other resource when considering what lang co conquer. nodes are already a must-have for any civ that wishes to use magic (and most people want to use magic of some sort).

    so i don't see any reason why you want to make the nodes even more valuable?
     
  12. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    because, save theshort term investment when you don't have enough culture, they are useless into your fatcross.
    even then, 4 prophets should give you enough culture to go into the 3rd ring.

    horses are mandatory to have mounted units... (a whole branch of the tech tree) (save some civ) therefore you can apply the same logic to them : but horses do give some tile bonus...

    same for reagants, mithril or incense or other strategic ressources. they are all essential and very valuable for a part of the tech tree and tier 4 units.

    without reagant, no 4th tier magic units... + it already gives some health civ wide : reagant should not give any additionnal profit to the tile it is in.
    without mithril : no +4str for mellee, no mithril golem..etc

    without mana : no spell
    --> but you already have 3 in the palace ...therefore, mana, while interesting should be less 'valuable' than mithril or horses.

    the same logic exist for most strategic ressources...

    the presence of a ressource (even a strategic) profits to the city that is built close-by, without speaking of the civ-wide effect.
    It is the rule for all ressources, Only mana nodes are disabling a tile for the city owning it.. a bit counter-intuitive no?
    the optimal use of them is : in your civ, out of fat-cross...
     
  13. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    i think the main problem with the mana nodes is that they stop you from building improvements there.

    yes, now i think of it i have often put the nodes in the 3rd ring if i know a city is going to produce a lot of culture, so that i can build improbements on all the tiles in the fat cross.

    so having a node in the fat cross can be a negative for the city, i agree, maybe not a big benefit, but something equivelent to a standard farm/mine that you would have otherwise been able to build if there wasn't a mana node there.
     
  14. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    yep. you understand what we mean...
    even for the AI it is disabling... they'll not plan for having mana node in the 3rd ring...

    with 2 prod bonus you can have some different options without making it an overpowered tile:
    either 2F, 2H, 2C or FH, FC, HC = 6 different type of tile boni after the mana node is made.
    or make that arcan lore gives +1 H or C or F to mana nodes and alchemy also...etc.

    each mana node does not have to be unique.
     
  15. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    that'd also have some effect on what mana nodes they'd want to build. and where you want to build it, say you have 3 mana in your teritory, and you want to build a law, death and fire for spells, then which city should get the fire node, and which city should have the law node, maybe one city might need food more then another, and one might advantage from the commerce more then another city.
     
  16. Antheanian

    Antheanian Chieftain

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    This is a great idea. It would help more the AI than the players since we usually put mana nodes outside of the fat cross to allow all tiles to be improved (most of the time). But the AI value the mana nodes like it does for a cow or copper ressource...

    Great idea! :goodjob:

    Now what type of bonus you give to each mana type? Let me try this out:

    Fire +1 H +2 C
    Water +2 F
    Air +3 C
    Earth +2 H
    Nature +2 F
    Law +3 C
    Life +2 F
    Spirit +3 C
    Chaos +3 C
    Death +2 H
    Entropy +1 H +2 C
    Mind +3 C
    Body +1 F +1 H
    Enchantment +2 H
    Dimensional +4 C

    I gave more commerce for dimensionnal mana since this node is rarely used and does not bring many powerful spells... And the idea of mages able to travel through dimension should increase the commerce more intensely, somehow...
     
  17. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    good idea.

    one risk is how the AI values improvements on what resources it gains and doesn't consider spell options, eg then the dumb AI only build dimensional nodes and nothing else.
     
  18. xanaqui42

    xanaqui42 King

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    Actually, in vanilla FfH II, there's a defect in this logic. Basically, it values each mana build as a large random value - the leader's preference for that build (it should be + instead of -) This ends up not mattering too much, since the random value predominates in most (all?) cases.
     
  19. The Tyrant

    The Tyrant Prince

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    Am I the only one who likes to have mana nodes in the first ring? In the third ring you have to worry about cultural pressure and pillaging much more than if the node is right beside your city. For me, having reagents and incense take priority over mana nodes because 1) without those you're limited in the spellcaster department and 2) you already start with some civ-specific mana from the palace. After I have reagents and incense, though, a node is the most valuable resource, just for the ability to gain more mana. The idea of a related bonus would add some flavor, but I doubt it would influence my decision as to which node to build. My spellcaster strategy will determine that.
     
  20. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    thats true ... if your mana is close to the border.
    and if you understand the cultur bomb effect, you won't be so much bothered by cultural pressure :)

    if you have the space to expand, and plan to have the mana node in the core of your empire, the only threat is early barbs... that you can slay easily enough.

    it still doesn't change the fact that mana nodes are the only ressource (improved) that yields nothing. and it is not even the most important ressource as as you said :
    _reagants are more important for a spellcaster strategy that a lone or even 2 mana nodes. (as there are 3 in the palace, and more in some wonders and Religious capital and there are ususally a lot more mana nodes than reagant plants.
    _you can play without spells (almost)
    _mithril, reagant, insence or horses are more determining to your way of playing the game.

    Cala.
     

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