Manhattan Project - Small wonder?

[Balastulin]

Ok. Having read the new preview on nuclear weapons, does anybody think that it's realistic that if, for example, America builds the Manhattan Project, then everybody can build nukes?

Personally, I think that the Manhattan project should be a very expensive Small Wonder. Who agrees?

 

[Balastulin]

Personally, I voted Small Wonder.

 

[Khaim]

Nah, I think large wonder is good. Otherwise, a small nation won't have a chance to build nukes at all- they'll be busy trying to finish the wonder, while their larger neighbor is nuking them to pieces. If it's a large wonder, everyone gets the same start.

 

[Lord_all_Mighty]

Edit: I withdraw my statement.

 

[knupp715]

I think it should be a small wonder. I don't agree that once one person finds out the secret of splitting the atom that all the other civs know it too. This wasn't how it was in real life. I'm not saying the game has to be 100% realistic or anything, it's just my opinion.

 

[Balastulin]

To Khaim:

is that not what happens in the real world? Just because America built the Manhattan Project, fifty years on it still takes a massive of investment of time, money, resources and diplomatic shunning to build nukes. I'm not a hyper-realist, but I just find it silly the way it is, with the added disadvantage that a normal human player would never build this wonder.

 

[UnitQ]

yeh, it should be a small wonder. It does not make any sense that one country makes the manhattan project and everyone could make nukes. It's also not fare, you have to do all the work for other civs, so you could just sitback and let a civ make the MP so you could make nukes, not fare at all :thumbdown. The civ that build the MP should get about 5 free ICBM's or something.

 

[CornMaster]

People still have to develop their own program. They can't magically build one.

I think the first civ should have to build an expensive large wonder....but after that, the small wonder is unlocked for the rest of the civs which is cheaper...but more realistic. Cause once the knowledge is freed....it will be faster to develop your own program.....

 

[knupp715]

People still have to develop their own program. They can't magically build one.

I think the first civ should have to build an expensive large wonder....but after that, the small wonder is unlocked for the rest of the civs which is cheaper...but more realistic. Cause once the knowledge is freed....it will be faster to develop your own program.....

Good Idea, I like it.

 

[EdCase]

Despite you asking who agrees..I'll post that I disagree and explain why.

The wonder in the game ,imho, is a marker so to speak for the beginning of nuclear proliferation or the entry into the so quaintly named "Atomic Age"
By being a Universal wonder it simply demonstrates the point in time when we hung the ultimate sword of Damocles above our own heads.

From a game mechanics viewpoint: The builders will gain Culture..but bear in mind all other Civs will have to have the tech researched & possess uranium before they can build nukes.Building the wonder implies that the builders are going for potential first strike capability.(namely they have industrial center ready to churn out nukes..either for diplomatic punch...or to strike down their rivals in a fast dirty conflict.
By making it a small wonder you effectively make it hard for smaller Civs to survive the endgame at all..

 

[Balastulin]

I like it too. This means the builder of the Manhattan Project would get a lead - and if anyone else is building it, production gets immediately shifted to Manhattan Small Wonder.

Good thinking CornMaster

 

[QiZhe]

I think a good compromise for this is to gift the builder with a free nuke (suggested also by other people) and to allow that civ to immediately begin building nukes, while other civs have to wait 5 turns or 10 turns or something like that, to represent the tech lead by the builder and also the time it takes for the information to leak and to build the necessarily facilities.

 

[Khaim]

To Khaim:

is that not what happens in the real world? Just because America built the Manhattan Project, fifty years on it still takes a massive of investment of time, money, resources and diplomatic shunning to build nukes. I'm not a hyper-realist, but I just find it silly the way it is, with the added disadvantage that a normal human player would never build this wonder.

Totally, absolutely, 100% true.

That said, this is a game. Let me repeat that: this is a game. It's not a history simulator, no matter how close it might be to one. Settlers get eaten by bears; you discover fission in 1500; Americans are around in -2000. From the perspective of a game, nukes are one-sided enough as it is, in that they are a huge weapon that is high on the tech tree and costs a lot of production. Only the leading nations will be able to build them anyway- and you propose to tack a small wonder in front of that? This way, the nation in the lead has to spend a lot of time and effort building the Project, which helps equalize it with the other nations.

 

[knupp715]

Despite you asking who agrees..I'll post that I disagree and explain why.

The wonder in the game ,imho, is a marker so to speak for the beginning of nuclear proliferation or the entry into the so quaintly named "Atomic Age"
By being a Universal wonder it simply demonstrates the point in time when we hung the ultimate sword of Damocles above our own heads.

From a game mechanics viewpoint: The builders will gain Culture..but bear in mind all other Civs will have to have the tech researched & possess uranium before they can build nukes.Building the wonder implies that the builders are going for potential first strike capability.(namely they have industrial center ready to churn out nukes..either for diplomatic punch...or to strike down their rivals in a fast dirty conflict.
By making it a small wonder you effectively make it hard for smaller Civs to survive the endgame at all..

Yes, the builders will gain culture, but probably in a good city that already has all the culture it needs. Also, just because this Civ makes it before somebody else does not mean it is ahead in techs and it doesn't mean that this civ has uranium. Other nations could have been building the wonder too and may very well have uranium and be ahead, or equal in techs. So how is it fair that one nation spends time making a wonder and the other nations benefit by getting to build nukes.

 

[Melendwyr]

Ok. Having read the new preview on nuclear weapons, does anybody think that it's realistic that if, for example, America builds the Manhattan Project, then everybody can build nukes?

Realistic? Since that's the way it actually happened, I'd have to say yes, it is realistic.

Whether it's desirable is another matter. I intend to mod the Wonder so that it grants the civilization that builds it a free nuclear weapon upon completion.

 

[knupp715]

Realistic? Since that's the way it actually happened, I'd have to say yes, it is realistic.

Whether it's desirable is another matter. I intend to mod the Wonder so that it grants the civilization that builds it a free nuclear weapon upon completion.

That is not how it happened. When America invented the atomic bomb, noone else knew how to make it yet. Yes, it did open the door to the invention of the atomic bomb by other nations and yes and most likely speeded up the rate at which the USSR invented Atomic bombs. But no, when America invented the atomic bomb, nobody else knew how to make them yet.

But I do like your idea of modding it so the person who makes the wonder gets a free nuke.

 

[EdCase]

Yes, the builders will gain culture, but probably in a good city that already has all the culture it needs. Also, just because this Civ makes it before somebody else does not mean it is ahead in techs and it doesn't mean that this civ has uranium. Other nations could have been building the wonder too and may very well have uranium and be ahead, or equal in techs. So how is it fair that one nation spends time making a wonder and the other nations benefit by getting to build nukes.

Ummm, in relation to general gameplaying it would be extremely dumb to build something you can't use. Plus if you have the ability to build the Wonder you'll be able to "see" the Uranium so....
Don't build the wonder,mass your forces/invest the hammers in convential military and go grab the resource..remember he who controls Arrakis con...<cough> wrong Universe
Its all checks and balances. Technology for the sake of technology is pointless..

Actually the theory was known..The USA was just the first to actually build a deployable weapon, which was in fact a bomb not a missile...so what if Nazi Germany had completed their heavy water research? They already had a delivery system far superior to the USA (the V2) would it have been fair ?
As I stated before as a game mechanic I believe the Great wonder is more functional since you must have both the tech to build the Wonder AND the tech to build the delivery system...to achieve this significantly ahead of anyone else you have to sacrifice something....Guns or Butter is what it boils down to.

 

[Melendwyr]

That is not how it happened. When America invented the atomic bomb, noone else knew how to make it yet. Yes, it did open the door to the invention of the atomic bomb by other nations and yes and most likely speeded up the rate at which the USSR invented Atomic bombs. But no, when America invented the atomic bomb, nobody else knew how to make them yet.

Most countries hadn't researched Fission yet. One country used a spy unit to steal that technology from the Americans, then spent some time devoting production to building nukes.

Once the U.S. figured out how to build nuclear weapons, the rest of the world learned the methods fairly quickly. While CivIII never simulated this exactly, it was a reasonable representation of what actually happened.

 

[Tacit_Exit]

I think it should be; Great Wonder (Manhatten Project) gives builder a free tech. 'Splitting the Atom' (required for nukes).

Tech. can then be traded (should have high value), researched by any Civ (prereqs same as for Manhatten Project) or gotten thru more nefarious means

 

[knupp715]

If I could have it my way it would be a combination of Corn Master's idea and Melendwyr's idea. I think it should be like this:
One person has to build a great wonder which automatically gives them one free nuclear weapon and opens the door for other people to make the small wonder. Everyone else has to build a small wonder and then they can make nukes after they build that small wonder.