Maogata Rebalanced

[Nycidian]

I very much enjoyed the idea of maogata but found some annoying flaws due to their development being stalled so I've attempted to develop and balance them to some extent.

The cajar promotion was very generic but vastly overpowered so I updated it so it's limited in power but more interesting. I found it somewhat jarring to have a normal archery line and boats with how the civ was portrayed so I came up with alternatives that I think fits more with their flavor. Finally I updated the teeth and claw mechanic as the original unarmed was more of a handicap instead of a flavor change.

Spoiler Current Release :

Spoiler Removed Features :

1. Temple Restrictions -- So players using Tassanny can produce priests.

Spoiler Units Types Blocked :

1. Arquebus
2. Marksman
3. Crossbowman
4. Workboat
5. Galley
6. Caravel
7. Galleon
8. Trireme
9. Frigate
10. Privateer
11. Queen of the Line
12. Arcane Barge
13. Carrack
14. Tradeship

Spoiler Units Changed :

1. Chaser, Prowler, Stalker: Reduced attack strength by one.
2. Chearsul: Added Forest Stealth.

Spoiler Units Added :

1. Tail Chaser:
2. Shadow of the Pride:
3. Sphinx: A worker/cargo unit that can move through all terrain except ocean.
4. Gryphon: A flying mounted unit that can carry one land unit.

Spoiler Promotions Changed :

1. Unarmed: Renamed to Primitive to better fit the flavor of the promotion. This now lastd one turn, a permanent version will only be given if the unit is Feline or is a Werewolf so as not to restrict non feline units from gaining the normal weapon line.
2. Cajar: This no longer gives strength bonuses, instead a secondary line of promotions are gained depending on the level of stacks of this promotion.
3. Reformed Line: Added level two and three.

Spoiler Promotions Added :

1. Natural Weapons Line: Based on Teeth and Claws equivalent to the normal weapons promotion line but based on hunting tracking, feral bond and animal mastery. These promotions require Feline or werewolf and primitive.

Changed

Spoiler Miscellaneous :

1. Names based on the level of Cajar gained.
2. Multiple minor fixes

After these changes the civ plays quite uniquely in that it has no high tier units other than the fury instead each unit can essentially become a high tier unit through the cajar mechanic. Also the civ has no sea units but can through gryphons and sphinxes emulate the same functions naval units would bring.

Download View attachment Maogata.zip

Note: I have only tried this with Rebirth and Legend

In Development

Spoiler In Development :

Spoiler Unit Changes :

1. Chaser, Prowler, Stalker: Exchanged defense and attack strength numbers making them better attacker but weaker on defense.
2. Sphinx: Added four spells unlocked by researching the schools of magic.
3. Sphinx: Stone Walking Prerequisite moved to Elementalism
4. Sphinx: Added worker xp & Aptitude I
5. Gryphon: Movement rate up to 5

Spoiler Promotion Changes :

1. Voice of Mana: Added secondary unitcombat melee.

Future Plans

• Address the elements that still remain that do not fit the flavor of the Maogata.
  • Worker -- Remove?
  • Scout
  • Assassins
  • Fort Commander
  • Great Commander
  • Lighthouses
  • Granary
  • Harbor
  • Mage Guild
  • Weaponsmith
  • Stable (change to a building giving xp to beasts?)
  • Hippodrome (change to a building giving xp to beasts?)
  • Others?
• Add special promotions available to units that have ranks in Cajar.
  • Marksman equivalent at Cajar 5 or 6.
  • Others?
• Perhaps add a Ailuranthropic (werecat) Maogata alternative to Baron Duin.
• add a promotion to whispers and voice of mana to give them secondary unitcombat melee or some other way to give them more promotion options.
• Move prereq of natural weapons I up to tracking to be more equivalent to bronze weapons.
• Add Abilities to Sphinx to climate change and create hills through later promotions or opened through later tech.
• Give Chearsul some levels of Cajar on creation, 5 perhaps.
• Add pedia Entries.
• Further Balancing.
• Better tracking of changes.

 

[black_imperator]

nice ideas, i'll try them when i can

 

[Nycidian]

nice ideas, i'll try them when i can

Thanks, I would appreciate any feedback if you have time after you try it out.

 

[Calavente]

seems interesting.

Cannot say more at them moment.

Why do chaser/prowler/stalker (recon units) have +1 def than attack ?

coup chaser (horse archer) seems weak ? (2/5) (versus the base archer : 1/5) : more mvt / range / max air damage than archer, but still not really strong (air combat of 2), while longbow equivalent has a air combat of 4, 2 mvt AND is 2/7+ allow weapons).

sphinx only has 1 mvt ?

gryphon has only 3 mvt ? (if it flies, it cannot use roads... thus slower than a scout/recon unit on roads). it if is supposed to replace boats (and can only take 1 unit with it) it might be better to give it a greater movement (at least comparable to boats : boats can easily get 6-7 mvt : longshoremen + 2mvt (promotions with the index finger thingy) + fair winds : +4 mvt and a base of 3-4-5 depending on the boat.)
(maybe even better than boats ? to compensate for the small carry capacity)


it seems natural_promotion 2 AND 3 both need level 9 before being applied... shouldn't it be 6 and 9 ?)
(it seems that those natural weapons are much harder to get than normal bronze-iron-mithril...
they need a level ...
they need harder techs ... (and don't have shortcuts: dragon hoard / RoK wonder)
natural weapon 3 has lower str than mithril.

maybe have them at 3-5-8 ?? so you can have a chance of having units "born" with natural weapons 1 if you have enough free xp ?)

to which city are given the +100 / +500 cultur when a Cajar unit dies ??

and cajar only gives "bonus" at 1 hunt, 5 hunts, 10, 20, 35 hunts, 60 hunts ?
it seems... much much less interesting than before (most like a huge nerf instead of a simple rewrite).. at least give a little bit of something yo the stackable "cajar" promotion:

+2%attack/defense ? so that having 19 hunts is still better than having 10 hunts..
or +1%xp gain ?

well...

But I really really like that you took a dip into re-affirming this civ.

i'll tell you when I'll play

 

[Nycidian]

seems interesting.
Why do chaser/prowler/stalker (recon units) have +1 def than attack ?

This is getting switched around next build FYI.

seems interesting.
coup chaser (horse archer) seems weak ? (2/5) (versus the base archer : 1/5) : more mvt / range / max air damage than archer, but still not really strong (air combat of 2), while longbow equivalent has a air combat of 4, 2 mvt AND is 2/7+ allow weapons).

They are intentionally weak due to the fact that they can get very high withdraw chance also FYI natural weapons effects both at 2 levels. After you play with them tell me what you think, they need some playtesting to check how they do with a high withdrawal chance.

seems interesting.
sphinx only has 1 mvt ?

This unit is meant to be primarily about building with the ability to carry a unit across the coast slowly which is why it's very slow though if you train mobility it will move much faster as it ignores movement costs. However this is just put at one as a test. Feedback is more than welcome.

seems interesting.
gryphon has only 3 mvt ? (if it flies, it cannot use roads... thus slower than a scout/recon unit on roads). it if is supposed to replace boats (and can only take 1 unit with it) it might be better to give it a greater movement (at least comparable to boats : boats can easily get 6-7 mvt : longshoremen + 2mvt (promotions with the index finger thingy) + fair winds : +4 mvt and a base of 3-4-5 depending on the boat.)
(maybe even better than boats ? to compensate for the small carry capacity)

I might change this upwards a bit we can try 5 next build though do remember that flying is still better than naval movement due to no slowdown over ocean even ignoring the ability to leave water.

it seems natural_promotion 2 AND 3 both need level 9 before being applied... shouldn't it be 6 and 9 ?)

No that is intentional it's just a way to balance a powerful mechanic making level 2 and 3 require you to level up before you can get them but not make you wait even further for level 3. This can change but that is the intent more about it next answer.

(it seems that those natural weapons are much harder to get than normal bronze-iron-mithril...
they need a level ...
they need harder techs ... (and don't have shortcuts: dragon hoard / RoK wonder)
natural weapon 3 has lower str than mithril.

They are a bit harder to get but that is intentional as it is also more powerful unlike the normal weapon like which effects melee primarily with some ranged and specific others natural weapons 1 effects near every combat type and 2 effects most and finally 3 effects a few types. Though after you play give me feedback it may need some tweaking. Oh and tech wise there not really harder techs to get they're just a different focus than you might normally go. However, if your focusing on that tech line it is very rewarding for this civ now as not only do you get strong stealth attackers that bring in animal resources but you increase the damage of all your units along the way.

maybe have them at 3-5-8 ?? so you can have a chance of having units "born" with natural weapons 1 if you have enough free xp ?)

Remember this is in context of their leaders, if you take the historic leader level 4 is only 7.5 xp to level 4 quite easy to get on unit creation. Though again tell me how it plays it could possibly use adjusting.

to which city are given the +100 / +500 cultur when a Cajar unit dies ??

I have no idea how it is decided though realize it's the enemies cities that gain that it's a small punishment for loosing the unit.

and cajar only gives "bonus" at 1 hunt, 5 hunts, 10, 20, 35 hunts, 60 hunts ?
it seems... much much less interesting than before (most like a huge nerf instead of a simple rewrite).. at least give a little bit of something yo the stackable "cajar" promotion:

+2%attack/defense ? so that having 19 hunts is still better than having 10 hunts..
or +1%xp gain ?

I do intend to add specific promotions that can only be purchased with high enough levels of cajar along with the leveling system to make it more interesting. But I am interested to hear more of what you think after you play.


Thanks for your time and input, hope that sheds some light on your questions

 

[Derf]

I did actually make the temple change in Rebirth. I'm currently arguing with modular python about making it so that if you're not Tassanny, the temples get disabled again.
Unfortunately a whole bunch of real-life stuff is taking up a lot of time, which is kinda why development stalled temporarily.

 

[Nycidian]

I did actually make the temple change in Rebirth. I'm currently arguing with modular python about making it so that if you're not Tassanny, the temples get disabled again.
Unfortunately a whole bunch of real-life stuff is taking up a lot of time, which is kinda why development stalled temporarily.

It's all cool, real life happens. Once you get it working i'll incorporate it into my build thanks for your work btw.

 

[Calavente]

thanks for beung so tolerant to my rambling...
I just commented on what I could comprehend based on the xml files.. so it's true that I might be a bit off...

I just wanted to comment something on the "natural weapons":

For me, you havent made a "natural weapons are stronger than metal weapons".

remember that melee + chariot + longbows can get +1str as early as bronze working, right out of production, and that those can get +2str, right out of production either after smelting OR right after building the RoK wonder.

so, in essence, melee units (and chariot, and longbows) are balanced in str/mvt/etc with regard to other unit lines (mages/priests-disciples/combat-disciples/mounted/recon) by factoring this increase in str.

for example, champions have only 6 str, and 1 mvt, as compared to equivalent ranger: 7str + 2mvt, . (or phalanx has 12str, 1mvt, vs Paladin 14str 1mvt, beastmaster 14str, 2mvt)
but that's because we have to take into account the boosts of metal weapons... boosts that are immediately accessible if you have the metal ressource.

now, it seems that using "natural weapons" as limited by tech AND level, you
- boosted all units (that didn't have access to weapons for other civs, and that didn't have their usual str changed much) but
- nerfed a lot the melee + longbow + knight + others that use normaly metal weapons.

Indeed: natural weapons are harder to get... & you can't get them on newly born units.
but melee units (and units designed for using metal weapons) still have the standard str.


EDIT: removed stupid ideas

 

[Nycidian]

For me, you havent made a "natural weapons are stronger than metal weapons".

It's not supposed to be stronger it's supposed to be slightly different, it's a bit harder to apply to units but applies to more units

so, in essence, melee units (and chariot, and longbows) are balanced in str/mvt/etc with regard to other unit lines (mages/priests-disciples/combat-disciples/mounted/recon) by factoring this increase in str.

...

now, it seems that using "natural weapons" as limited by tech AND level, you
- boosted all units (that didn't have access to weapons for other civs, and that didn't have their usual str changed much) but
- nerfed a lot the melee + longbow + knight + others that use normaly metal weapons.

Indeed: natural weapons are harder to get... & you can't get them on newly born units.
but melee units (and units designed for using metal weapons) still have the standard str.

Your right in that due to them having to work a bit more to get the bonus its a slight nerf to certain combat units on the other hand this is somewhat intended as due to maogata flavor the arcane and recon lines should end up stronger and usually favored.

...do maogata ever get a use of mana nodes ? I don't remember...

They can use them but don't normally get spells although you can overload nodes and still gain automatic spells when creating/upgrading units. But using mana nodes is generally antithetical to a useful playstyle for them.

As for your suggestions I would like some actual play testing before any major changes.

 

[Derf]

They have two arcane units - the Whisper of Mana that can improves nodes, and the Voice of Mana that destroys both the node and the resource itself to gain a permanent bonus.

 

[Lplate]

Good luck with your project.

The AI will probably have difficulty in coping with expansion to other continents if the only ocean transports can only carry one unit.

 

[shoggi]

oh, wow, that is surprising that somebody still cares after all this time.

anyway, yeah the archery and boat/siege stuff was still in because i never figured out what to do with them. they were slated to be changed/removed but i could never come up with a good replacement.

if i remember correctly the cajar promotion worked a bit differently in my original designs, but it was a bit too cumbersome to do at that point and i didn't want the system to be too complicated.



something to note for the spirit of the pride.

something i wanted to do, but never got to (at least i think i never got to it) was to give it exactly 9 lives, because cats.

the idea was that once they are on their last life, they turn into furies, because they try to get as much out of their last life as they can, hence the super aggressiveness of the fury.

also if i remember it right according to playtesters, the spirit is horrible broken in the current state


anyway, again, happy to see someone still enjoying this after all these years and looking forward to whee this is going.

 

[Nycidian]

if i remember correctly the cajar promotion worked a bit differently in my original designs, but it was a bit too cumbersome to do at that point and i didn't want the system to be too complicated.

What do you think of the new cajar?

Spoiler Cajar Mechanic :

Any number of Cajar stacks allows...

• Authorizes unit to train Sentry I/II & Perfect Sight
• Secondary unitcombat: Commander
• Unit is allowed to make attacks
• Unit receives Defensive Bonuses

The Following table shows The Cajar Levels based on the stack number of Cajar

Level| Stacks Needed| Strength Bonus| Offensive| Defensive| Other
1 | 1 | 0 | +5 First Strikes | | +1 Culture on Win;+1 Command Limit
2 | 5 | 1 | | Immune to Fear | +1 Culture on Win; +1 Perception; +1 Command Range
3 | 10 | 2 | + 50% collateral Damage / +3 targets | | +1 Culture on Win; +1 Perception; +1 Visibility Range; +1 Command Limit
4 | 20 | 3 | | Doubles Fortification Bonus | +1 Culture on Win; +1 Perception; +1 Command Range
5 | 35 | 4 | Heals 25% after Combat | | +1 Culture on Win; +1 Perception; +1 Command Limit
6 | 60 | 5 | | Immortality | + 1 Culture on Win; +1 Perception; +1 Visibility Range; +1 Command Range

something to note for the spirit of the pride.

something i wanted to do, but never got to (at least i think i never got to it) was to give it exactly 9 lives, because cats.

the idea was that once they are on their last life, they turn into furies, because they try to get as much out of their last life as they can, hence the super aggressiveness of the fury.

I might look into doing that when I'm a bit more comfortable with using python with civ4, right now while I know how to code python it's much more difficult when your doing so half blind due to how hard it is to debug in this game.

also if i remember it right according to playtesters, the spirit is horrible broken in the current state

Specifically what? just that they were immortal? Thinking about it I can see how it would be pretty broken near the capital, maybe a better mechanic would be 100% healing after combat. Definitely Something to ponder.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Calavente]

Hi,

EDIT: ... sorry, I solved it myself ....

 

[Calavente]

so, first impressions:

cajar promotion evolution seems ok (especially as you try to focus on a few units).
for the moment I have 1-2 and I am working on techs to get to cajar 3. (10-cajar promo)
(the only issue is that prey is not given to enough units... or at least not enough near your civs.. so it is easier to give more Cajar to old units that have already a few (and are already in the wilds) than to new units.)

however, I expect that the feeling of "mis-use" will appear soon, when I'll need .. 10 more cajar promotions before being able to boost 1 unit... when the same number of preys would give +1 str +5 FS to 2 newbee units.


at least what is fun is that with the Moagata you have a strange interaction with barbs:
-you kill until you are lvl 4 : +1str,
-then kill in search of preys.
-do not kill barbs... to reserve more space for preys.


Re Units:
-axeman replacement is weak ! 3/5 .. that's bad: they are weak, they can't get the "animal blood promotions", they are slow... it's really hard to get them to natural weapons 1 / cajar 2.
-tail chaser... I don't know really : strong-ish defense, but less than axeman replacement (which have +25%city defense): but ranged str is weak, (and thus gives low xp).
-tiger (horseman replacement): weak weak weak ... 3str ???? what can you do with that ? even axeman replacement has at least 5def. + they are "beast units" : very weak to all the recon units wandering. (beast units are always very weak as any recon + subdue animals gets at least +50%vs beasts/animals).
what is the interest of those units vs the "normal" tiger ?
it would be interesting to boost them somehow.

-recon units... I modified them to 4/3 instead of 3/4 ... and it is not so interesting: a bit OP even as they have a +1str in forest / have access to elephant blood (+1str) / spider blood (+1poison) / poison blade (+1 poison) .. and then access to cajar / natural weapons.

-feline in forests:
something is missing : they don't have any movement bonus (nor the stalker +1str bonus) in jungle / ancient forest / deep jungle !


recommandation
-->leave the recon at 3/4 or 6/7 ...etc
--> change feline / stalker to also give bonus in ancient forest / jungle / deepjungle .. (and marsh ?)
--> change melee to : 5/3 instead of 3/5 (or to the normal 4/4)
--> change tail chaser / longbow replacement / coup rider to : +1attack str / +1range attack str
--> change tiger / horseman : to 4/3 +25%vs recon (negates a bit the recon specificity).

 

[Calavente]

well.

I looked into it last sunday... and it seems that the melee and mounted line str and weakness were already in Shoggi's version.
However they still feel really unbalanced.

Whisper of mana cannot have any spell promotions… even when you have the body/ shadow/nature mana nodes. (IMO whisper of mana need a boost: they are less than any other adept)

Maogata can’t get any religion: that + world spell, compensates largely the cajar world spell, somehow (+5FS for many units, +1 str for a few, +2 / +3 str for rare elite units (3 in my game after 230 turns/normal speed.

No spell casters (no tier III spell caster eithers)

Less end-game units : no immortal / phalanx / Archmage / (High priest) / war-chariot / marksman / X-bow / no Paladin / Eidolon / ? Druid ?
No siege / Arquebuse / no navy.

honestly, the maogata have no "attacking" line... save the recon line.

Spoiler :

-recon line is strong-ish : (but in fact that is somewhat balanced due to cajar being a world spell + religion compensation and difficult + natural weapons 2-3 being hard to gain, and level limited).
+1str when in forest
+hidden in forest
(normal access to elephant blood / spider blood)
+access to natural weapons. (natural weapons 1 replaces poison blade that is not allowed)
(+1str in forest replace having 1/0 less than normal recons)

What renders them strong vs normal recon is: natural weapons 2-3 which come late and cajar 2-3-4 which compensate for world spell/religion.
What renders them strong vs other unit lines : is the “normal” elephant blood / spider blood.
So, in fact, Recon units for Maogata are balanced… it’s the other lines that are weak :

-melee is weak

Spoiler :

no "enchanted blade as no caster" / (3/5 for axe and 5+immortal for champion) (remember : no mithril weapons allowed for them, so, in end game, at most, they are str8 (at lvl9)+cajar str (10kills for +2str)... while out-of-the-barrack champions are usually already at str8 in mid-game, and can reach easily str 10 late game.

-mounted is weak :

Spoiler :

3str for Ashar / cannot upgrade to chariot (no chariot) / cannot upgrade to coup rider / can only wait for Asharii to become stronger (knight replacement)
Ashar has -1str, +2FS than normal, no bonus vs Archers, inherent malus vs recon, no equipment buyable (equipement are not for Beasts).

Coup rider will be discussed later as in fact they are not mounted but ranged only.

Asharri : what can be the most wrong with those ?
9 str, 3 mvt... beast unit:
duplicate the defects of both Ashar and melee line:
- 9str instead of knight 11/9
- not boosted by all those Mounted-xp-providers (ride of the nine king / hippodrome...etc)
- no training by any training building.
- no weapons... knights are generaly built with iron weapons or mithril : 13/11 or 14/13 str.
- beast unit : so inherent weakness to all the recon line.
let's agree: that's a weak unit for a tier 4 unit.

Ranged is weak and not adapted

Spoiler :

NO fire-arrow as no caster.
tail chaser :
1/5 / 1 air combat / 2mvt / 30 CD / woodsman / 20/10 def strike / 20/40/3 collateral
versus archer :
3/5 / 2 air combat / 1 mvt / 25CD/25Hilldef / 20/10 def strike / no Collateral
let say that 25hill def is equal to woodsman 1 (which is not as you can build cities on hills but not on forest)
then : 2att str, 1 air combat has been replaced by +1mvt +collateral ?
- you cannot use the collateral as you have 1attack str.
- air attack is very weak.
- the unit is only usable as defensive unit (5 str)... but the Amparasho has at least same defense (and stronger CD).
- the 2 moves are useful to relocate quickly, but as the unit attacking str is so weak, there is almost no use of it.

Coup rider is a nice niche-upgrade for the current tail chasers:
- 2/5 str, 2air str / 2range (50 combat limit), 3 mvt, / 40 CD) + withdrawal 15/40 20/10 def strike / 20/30/3 collateral
as compared to other choice shadow of pride :
- 2/7 str, 4air str / range 1 (30 combat limit) / 45 CD 40/20 def strike / 25/50 withdrawal 35/50/2 collateral / 75 def forest (can gain iron weapon... but not allowed because feline)
So you have two choices :
-long-ranged Harasser : increased range 2 range / 3 mvt, increased damage limit
-“powerful” ranged attacker : increased defense / air str / increase CD / forest def / increased withdrawal / collateral / defensive strike.

This path is interesting when you look at them from the current Tail chaser, without looking at other civs. However, when compared to normal units, it’s a lack-luster thingy.
Longbow is : 5/6 +iron weapons / 4 air str / range 1 (40combat limit) 25 CD / 25HD / 30/15 def strike
Horse archer is : nondefense 6/6 2airstr (combat limit 15) 1 FS / withdrawal 35 - 20/10 def strike

In fact : all unit lines are dispersed:

- melee starts as defender… then to suicide attacker (otherwise, what is the role of a 5/5 str immortal ?)
- archers are defenders only that can do collateral but can’t use it (no attack str whatsoever), then can chose harasser / defender … again with collateral, but with such low attack str that the collateral is not useful.
- Mounted is weak to recon, has no tier-3 upgrade and is much weaker than counterpart and are thus not really attackers

did you notice that there is no attacking line ? the only “attackers” are in fact the one that could get the cajar 2 promotions until late game (when you can get natural weapon 2 (tier III tech) and natural weapon 3 (tier IV tech), or wait for High-Cajar Elites : which need much tier 2 techs : hunting, mysticism, warfare, bronze working.
And, as stated above, that bonus (cajar 3+) are reserved to a very few elites… and is a weak compensation for having NO spells ! no religion ! and it replaces any other useful world spell

what would I do ?
Change Natural weapons : lvl 3, lvl 6, lvl 9 : 1/0, then 2/1, then 3/2
Allow a second “hunt” world spell at warfare or military strategy : targets non-allied civs units… limited to units with lvl > 3

I would streamline unit lines and thus :

Spoiler :

Melee : City defenders + crazy attackers
- Axes 4/5 : notice that levels for natural weapons 2-3, same for cajar 2 for a 1mvt unit (and in that case, it would be in wilderness, far from your civ.
- Champion: SoP : 6/6 + immortal (+ can teleport to capital ???)

Ranged : ranged attacker / collateral
Tail chaser should be either : 4/3 / 2 air combat / 2mvt/ + collateral .... OR
1/5 / 3 air combat / 2mvt no collateral / increase defensive strike : either focused on a "collateral quick attacker, with air combat" or on no melee attack powerful & quick air combat in attack/def : due to ambush ... etc

Coup rider : harasser / attacker :
- 4/5 str, 2air str / 2range (30 combat limit), 3 mvt, (20 CD) + withdrawal 35/50 20/10 def strike / 20/30/3 collateral (so VS normal HA, you loose 2/1 str and 10 withdrawal 10 def strike str, but gain: defensive + increased air combat limit + small collateral + ability to gain natural weapons I)
shadow of pride : defender / Ranged attacker
- 3/7 str, 5air str / range 1 (50 combat limit) / 45 CD 40/20 def strike / 15/40 withdrawal 35/50/2 collateral / 75 def forest (so VS normal longbow : trade 5/6 vs 3/7 , trade bronze/iron/fire-arrows vs : natural weapons I, loosing exchange -5/+1 but might be compensated by +1air str / collateral / withdrawal / 2 mvt / forest defense)

Mounted : (need to re-equilibrate/ with the 75% bonus of any recon with “subdue animal&#8221
Ashar : 4/4 + 40% vs recon 3mvt + stalker promotion
NEW: Ashar Pride (mixed lion/tiger pride unit ?) (need lion cage + tiger cage) 5/4, replace chariot, 3mvt, 40 vs recon, +30%att/def in desert / in forest / jungle + stalker promotion
Asharri: 11str, + 70vs recon (need to equilibrate with “subdue beast&#8221 + stalker promotion.

Spoiler alternative to Mounted line :

Mounted line is "herders": city attackers / pillager "Ashar"
Ashar : 3/3 / 3mvt + subdue animal promotion / upgrade to Boar Ashar upon defeat of a Boar / or with boar pen + tiger pen : image ; 2 Boar + 1 Tiger : 4/4, auto-pillage / +10% city attack 2 mvt + can attack city-defense: access to siege promotions.
Bear Ashar : 5/4, 2mvt replace chariot, need dancing bear (or upgrade bear unit near city with tiger cage), image 2 bears + 1 tiger + 20% city attack + can attack city-defense: access to siege promotions
Elephant (Mammoth) Ashar: 11 (12), auto-pillage, 2 mvt +20 vs mounted +40 CA. (need elephant pen OR upgrade elephant / mamoth in city with tiger cage) + can attack city-defense: access to siege promotions

Whisper of Mana: + have a free “medic 2 and maybe 3” + can “create culture” (culture bomb or like disciple units / or like spirit 2) / or can sacrifice to build council of elders ? + can absorb body shadow nature mana nodes ?

Sphinx construct: actual : 1 mvt no impassable terrain (sea + mountains)
Gryphon : actual 2mvt + flying:
I would reverse techs and go
Gryphon 3 mvt no impassable 1 carry / mounted line
Sphinx Construct : can build… 3 mvt + flying (total 4) / 3 carry / mounted line.

IMO, one would also need to add a few variations to change the loss of all those late-game units.