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Map: Philosofical/financial (Elizabeth) on small isolated island with 3 coastal rivals

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by gavenkoa, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    I've got interesting map, starting position marked by cross:

    upload_2019-6-29_14-58-9.png

    I chose Elizabeth to support high research rate (Financial) even been on Immortal difficulty. And to practice to work with Great People (Philosophical).

    So far I tried tenth openings up to 100Turn.

    It is small island, 3 warriors + capital fog bust all area.

    Question: is boat fog bust? It is possible to cover area with 2 warriors + boat or even 1 warrior + 2 boats but I am not sure if naval units prevent from barbarian spawning in fogged areas...

    It is a semi-isolated island, sharing coast with other 3 nations. This:

    * opens threat of early rogue island colonization by rivals. I can't cover all area by cities as rivals unload Settlers before I get Currency to support 5-6 cities (easy go with 2-3). I built settlers in advance and positioned them with delaying settling until rival Galleys appear. I firstly used "closing cultural border" to block further Galleys movement.

    * enables early foreign trading. I figured this out only in last attempt. "Sailing" change commerce income per city from +1 to +3 so it covers city maintenance even before Currency and can support high research rate before Writing (with Library) with larger number of cities.

    Question: I am new to concept of studying Sailing. My opening for this map: BronseWorking => Hunting => Agriculture => AnimalHusbandry => Wheel => Writing => Alphabet and then trading for IronWorking + Sailing. I discover rivals on turn 20. Shouldn't I have had Sailing then?

    Question: I feel lack of workers (3 units for 3-4 cities). Do they need to built roads if there is Sailing? That way I can built 2 times more improvements...

    Another interesting challenge of opening of this map is availability of sea food. I preferred to build boat + warrior + boat because Elizabeth don't have fast way to AnimalHusbandry. I applied micro - when city size become 2 I switched to 100% production blocking city population growth so Boat appears after 4 turn and gets +3 food boost instead of say 10 turns...

    Question: Is it OK to go with boats first instead of worker that at arrival time can't improve Pig nor build mine? I haven't think about early tree chopping.

    Question Island lacks of Stone/Marble. I think I need to build only one early Wonder - Great Library...


    Question I go with difficulty - Immortal. Is it OK to try my first Deity? Isolation + Financial trait gives advantage of having larger land mass to compensate difficulty level... Map makes important of happiness resource trading which I always neglect ((

    Question Is it OK to expand cultural borders with libraries? I don't like to spend production on Monuments...
     

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  2. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    I don't have the opportunity to check save right now but:

    1. Work boats do fogbust just like other units.
    2. I would almost certainly research sailing earlier. Overseas trade routes are very nice income and you don't need to connect cities by road. As you point out, that saves workerturns.
    3. Since I haven't looked at the save, build order is a bit harder to say, but rushing WB should usually be fine.
    4. Based on the minimap and with a lack of stone and marble the obvious wonder should be GLH.
    5. Try whatever difficulty level you want :)
    6. Libraries for borderpops are very much "it depends", but there's a good chance its decent on this map.
     
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  3. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Only wonder you need on a map like this is GLH. If you have stone or marble, you might consider some thing else or at least fail gold. But GLH=win on water maps.

    I'm not reconciling why you need Currency to get up 6 cities early. Yep, Currency is certainly important but should not preclude expansion. As long as you are making some GPT at 0% research you are fine.

    As a non-creative leader, especially on a map with unreachable food (seafood) it may be best to build monuments for faster access to that food. The exception would be if there is already accessible food or forest and you can chop/whip that library fast. Ideally, yes, Writing before Myst is best if you don't start with Myst already. (and with a leader like Lizzy, you want those libraries up fast to start running scientists)

    On a watery map like this especially where you need to settle cities over water, self-teching Sailing earlier may certainly be best. Also, you want to open up GLH asap.

    What was your food here. I'm interested in your tech path of Hunting>AG>AH after BW. BW start may be fine if your main food is seafood here (Lizzy does start with fishing anyway). But Hunt>Ag>AH seems like a lot of stuff in that case.

    Roads are only needed on a map like this if you need to hook up key resources. If not, it may be better to go Sailing before the Wheel to get settlers across the sea and open trade routes. It may certainly be worth delaying Wheel and hooking up any resources, in this case, for a while.

    So unless there is just a real juicy food resource on the land in your cap, as opposed to the seafood, then something like BW>Sailing>Masonry may be a better opening here.

    Keep in mind that closing cultural borders will cut off foreign trade routes. I understand wanting to block AIs from sending settlers past you, but I think you may be able to simply expand faster to grab the good spots.
     
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  4. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Hunting - AH was for bfc pigs, but i see no reason for Agri :)
    While it speeds up AH and later pottery, it's of no use without any farming resis.
    (hunting can also be used for Ivory later, scouting will reveal Jumbos early)

    Raging Imm barbs hmm..they cause trouble against just warriors?
    GLH is certainly not an easy build with Lizzy, barb problems and teching AH.
    (but i cannot remember how bad those barbs are on Imm)
     
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  5. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    I Elizabeth has Fishing and capital is exposed to 2 fish resources there is no urge even for AH for pig. Chopping and whipping (BW, I think you mistyped abbr) may help with hurrying workers/settlers/library.

    There is area for 4 cities with jungle covered river and few 2nd tile fish resources so Metal Working (MW??) + Agriculture will bust those cities grows. In my play I ut those cities only to claim territory, they are suck ((

    Putting early Sailing is significant change that I've never considered ((

    I built some roads + cottages in first 100Turns and it looks like a waist of time. Cottages are never worked I my play and water tiles gives +3C (+2C default & +1C from Financial leader trait) with only investment in Lighthouse.

    Question Is it usual priority to push happiness limit? I believe that there is urgent need to connect Ivory + Gem for happiness (+2 healthiness this map provides straight away for the capital). I completed this task near the 80T while capital stagnated several time due to unhappiness (with pop 4-5, as 4 is free in Immortal).

    Question I tried not only to chop but also built improvement, like cottage that left unused by city. Shouldn't I just chop and move ahead?


    +2 trade routes in all coastal cities - now I see why this is important. I found Currency with +1 trade route an opening for + 3-4 extra city for empire. But +2 route is much better!

    And path to Currency is 100T long for me, while Lizzy can get GLH in 13T (learning Sailing) + 200H/ ~10H/T ~= 13T+20T. First 40T I'll probably spend on 2 Work boats + 3 Warriors + 1 Worker. So GLH can be expected on 60T. But on 75T rivals claim island land so 2-3 settlers must be built earlier to block entering to land via cultural borders... Early 80T are extremely tense, I feel lack of production power to fulfill goals ((
     
  6. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    I've got familiar with this concept that doubled hammers to gold and started to use it. Seems that it is not important with lack of Stone/Marble.

    QUESTION There are Statue of Zeus (Ivory) and Colossus (Copper) that are on island. Seems failgold them is a strategic task, isn't it?


    Probably because I don't like to lose high research rate (10T per tech). I don't know a way to recover from 0% research rate. I pursue:

    * Writing for library boost (switch research slider to 0% to collect cash for +25% multiplayer)
    * Library for hired Scientists (can carry research on even with 0% slider) and Great scientists pop-up to make Academy +50% boost.
    * Alphabet to switch every idle city to research to maintain research event if economy is crippled to 0% research slider.
    * Currency for covering deficit and boost from extra trade route.

    Without reaching Writing/Alphabet/Currency I see no way to get out of crippled economics unless (that what I am know):

    * failgold
    * conquest rivals + burning cities (as there is no funds to maintain them)
     
  7. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Immortal raging barbs can be very bad depending how much land is available for them to spawn. If it's a small area and you get it fog busted quickly it's probably not too bad.

    There was a pretty famous forum game here once where you started isolated on your own large continent with raging barbs. It might have been a deity game but the barbs on that were insane. It was about like playing an always war game.
     
  8. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    There is a Pig near the capital. But Worker will be done at T40. Other cities lack access to seafood in direct 1 cell radius. There is river and I expect Farms help boost those cities. Researching 2 tech instead of 1 gives 20% cost reduction.

    Also I go to Wheel+Pottery for 20% cost reduction of Writing. Probably it is better to skip Wheel+Pottery and get Writing + Alphabet earlier and trade them for Wheel+Pottery ...
     
  9. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    I add extra 2 nations to reduce raging barbs effect and this particular map requires only 3 warriors to cover all land. It costs 3*4 = 12T of growth delay but adds some challenge. I started to like threat after playing K-mod (when rivals comes with 2-3 Archers on 50T).

    Probably need to get rig of "raging barbs" option.
     
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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  11. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Omg you found it! I searched the forum for 20 minutes earlier but I couldn't remember the thread title or who posted it.

    @krikav did you change usernames at some point?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I think BW first...WB first is best here. Going for AH first will leave a lot of idle turns I think, and BW helps make up for the wb delays with chops/whips.

    T40 worker? What speed are you playing. I did a little test in your game and got the worker out on T22 after the wb..and I wasn't really paying that much attention..may have gotten it out sooner.

    Since no forested PH..I would grow to size 2 on WB with pig tile, then at size 2 switch to max hammers to speed it up. Switch to slavery after BW and 1pop worker asap.

    Is this Archipelo? Other than that you have some wonky settings. I find Torriodal so annoying..it effs with my mind.

    So, anyway, it really boils down to playing the map here. First, GLH should be a priority whereas I don't see cottaging a priority at all. Cap only has 2 river tiles anyway. Lots of jungle to the N but you have copper and 2 fishes to the N that require border pops. Might go Myst first on the way to Masonry for monuments cause those are the best cities I see so far other than copper and whatever else is over there...haven't explored fully.

    SoZ and Colossus are indeed fail gold ops, but Colossus is something I may want to actually build at you have to get forges out too.

    happy cap: Not so much a priority early when you are whipping. cities can build workers are settlers a bit while wearing off unhappies. But don't forget that unhappy citizens are worth just as much as happy. You don't want to stay unhappy long cause you pay for it, but don't be afraid to use those unhappies for whips. London should rock with food at some point. I'd likely not chop a library but rather 3pop whip it at size 6 even if I grow into unhappiness a turn or two. So no, I don't see urgent need for ivory or gems. And, well, those gems will require IW which you will need to trade for at some point later.

    Sounds like you have some familiarity with the 0% research deal, but seem stuck on an idea of where you economy needs to be at X point in the game. More cities mean more research capability so you should nerf yourself by limiting expansions. Obviously there are some limits early, but you want to get up to 4 to 6 cities at a reasonable pace.

    Yes, chopping should be a priority over cottages. I mean you do what you have to work with. I don't see cottages as a big deal on this map. I might save some forests for GLH though.
     
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  13. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I remember that Kossin barb game well...it was brutal
     
  14. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    Fractal with high sea level.

    Normal speed. I though that worker wouldn't have anything to do earlier and it is better to go with 2 Work boats... This way I am unable to build GLH & 2 cities (besides capital) to claim territory at the same time... Different replays show fail on T70...

    From the start you have +9G at least. With city maintenance even with 0% research slider player may end near zero income. I unable to recover from such condition on early stages. Failgold or conquest are the only way to continue research at meaningful rate as there are no specialists, trading yet.

    I tried this. At some point worker pre-chopped 2 tiles which I don't wont to invest into WB as it is an opportunity for meaningful population regrow.

    As I understand chopping hammers should invested to more important stuff (like early costly competing Wonders). But I'd like to put it into library/granary. Or worker/settler...
     
  15. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    No, that is a misconception. You want to start chopping immediately. Get out that second workboat and start setting up a settler whip. Libraries can be whipped. Granaries may be worth some chopping but not urgent in cap (and here POT likely delayed until after Alpha). Absolutely nothing wrong with chopping out second workboat here or just go straight to settler..switch to warrior for some growth. you have plenty of forest to work with here anyway. (I assumed that you settled 1N?)

    In my game I let WB take OF from worker whip, switch to warrior, and let WB take the first chop. Any passive OF I put into a settler. I went BW>Sailing>Myst>Masonry>AH>Writing>Alpha. traded for rest of the junk. I had tons of gold per turn from foreign trade routes quite early (Willie usually gets Writing pretty fast anyway), and could easily afford the 7 or 8 cities that could fit on this small landmass where every city is not far from cap anyway. All that before GLH was built.

    Most forests likely go into GLH. But at least 3 to 4 can go into earlier stuff, even part build LH for 2pop whip - into GLH. If you feel concerned about losing GLH you can always whip that too as soon as the option opens.

    If a worker as a use you always want to get him out asap. And chopping is most definitely a use.

    I completed GLH on t70 actually. Should have been several turns sooner but I was dealing with those darn barbs...had to whip warriors instead of setting up good whips. Raging barbs is not doing you any favors here unless you are just keen to play that setting.

    Problem here with this strange map is Ais having access to your landmass. Freddie to pop a city in the NW before I could settle the land. Ofc, it could just be considered a free city.

    Again, more cities increase your research potential.
     
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  16. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    I skipped Myst. Only one city in my setup benefits from Monuments, as:


    ... I prioritized on land claiming:

    Spoiler T75 with secured land + GLH :
    GLH-T75.jpg


    I like that challenge.

    So using your tips to go for worker first and intensively chopping and whipping 4=>2 (I go for 3 settlers as they avoid -2F unhappiness penalties) I got 3 cities blocking any rival's settlers drop out and built GLH at T75.

    I did not go for second worker as it don't have anything useful to do. It could only help in late chopping of GLH but at that time I was preoccupied by settler building....

    Thanks all for training!

    PS I start to value Lighthouse as with 2 seafood it makes growth so fast (+3+2F=+5F vs +4+3F=+7F with 2 citizens) that I don't need Granary )) Now I 4T away from Pottery but I'd like to trade them from Alphabet... Earlier Granary costs 15T - not worth to go for...

    PPS I reached main early goals and now I hesitate on next targets:

    * I believe first priority is to build 3 more cities (+9C in each possible coastal city repays owning with huge surplus)
    * tiles must be improved - second goal is to get workers
    * I want Great Scientist + Great library in capital
    * I probably trade Pottery (for Granaries) + IW (for jungle chopping)

    Question What mid game priority should I consider? My development log:

    Spoiler Development log :

    Up to T75:
    Bronze Working => Sailing => Hunting => Animal Husbandry => Masonry => Writing
    1 worker
    4 cities

    Turn 15
    100% Research: 9 per turn
    Tech research finished: Bronze Working
    London finishes: Worker

    Turn 16
    Civics Change: user(England) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

    Turn 23
    A Mine was built near London

    Turn 24
    London grows to size 2

    Turn 25
    London finishes: Work Boat

    Turn 28
    Tech research finished: Sailing

    Turn 29
    London grows to size 3

    Turn 30
    The whip was applied in London
    London finishes: Work Boat

    Turn 32
    A Mine was built near London
    A Fishing Boats was built near London

    Turn 33
    Tech research finished: Hunting
    London grows to size 3

    Turn 37
    A Mine was built near London
    London grows to size 4
    London finishes: Warrior

    Turn 41
    Tech research finished: Animal Husbandry

    Turn 42
    The whip was applied in London
    London finishes: Settler

    Turn 46
    London grows to size 3

    Turn 47
    York founded
    Tech research finished: Masonry

    Turn 54
    The whip was applied in London
    London finishes: Settler

    Turn 55
    London finishes: Lighthouse

    Turn 57
    London grows to size 3
    York grows to size 2

    Turn 59
    York finishes: Warrior

    Turn 61
    Nottingham founded

    Turn 63
    Tech research finished: Writing
    Hinduism has spread: York

    Turn 64
    The whip was applied in London
    London finishes: Settler

    Turn 66
    London grows to size 3

    Turn 68
    Hastings founded

    Turn 69
    London grows to size 4

    Turn 70
    Diplomacy: Willem van Oranje (Netherlands) offers to trade Open Borders to user (England) for Open Borders
    Diplomacy: user (England) accepts gift of from Willem van Oranje (Netherlands)

    Turn 74
    The whip was applied in London
    London finishes: The Great Lighthouse
    York finishes: Worker
     
  17. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep, myst can be avoided, and potentially you can hope to catch religion in cities. (in my game these guys did not found early religions) I still probably would have gone Masonry before the AH>Writing path here. GLH can go rather early on IMM, but at least you got it regardless.

    My one point of interest in your game is why not settle dye city 1E on the other dye opening up a coastal spot near the gems. You have room here for 7 coastal cities, and with GLH all your cities should be coastal, with maybe an 8th city later right in the middle of the landmass.

    Yep, need for workers obviously dependent on the land and with all that jungle you will have limited things for it to do. What you could do with a city like York that has limited growth potential but a strong production tile is just slow build a worker there, even another settler. Probably much better builds that a LH in that city.

    Most of you other cities are certainly very unproductive early here, obviously, but that doens't matter much with GLH. You just want to get them planted asap for the boost, which you have done. (Except Hastings should be coastal)
     
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  18. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    It is mistake of desire to claim most of the land with less number of settlers... and not thinking about maximizing income from larger number of coastal cities ((

    Thanks for suggestion!
     
  19. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep, my logic here would be to try to fit as many reasonable cities on the coast as one can. I think 7 is that number, with the clam city below London as well.
     
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