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[R&F] Mapuche First Look

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    And even if it's not awesome (for reasons people have fairly brought up here) it's an awesome failed experiment!
     
  2. Giskler

    Giskler +1 Sleuthing

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    How loyalty works, for reference.
     
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  3. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    You clearly have a very different definition of guaranteed to me! I would regard this guarantee as sound as the fact they were a lock for the expansion ......
     
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  4. Magil

    Magil Monarch

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    Interestingly it seems like he's more likely to like you if you're in a Golden Age (more loyalty) and dislike you if you're in a Dark Age (less loyalty).
     
  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Can you tell us more about the Chemamull? Like, what tech unlocks it and any placement restrictions?
     
  6. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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    I'm really looking forward to trying them out, but they won't be my first R&F civ - I want to get a feel for how loyalty works without modifications first.
     
  7. ltccone

    ltccone Prince

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    Seriously? Then make sure every civ you play collapses at their appropriate time.
     
  8. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Their spearman graphics are new, right? Or did the Aztec use these before? I don't remember building Aztec spearmen...
     
  9. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Prince

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    Great posts Olleus and Magil.

    Their Chemamull could be either super strong or even super weak depending upon how early it comes.

    Swift Hawk appears to be very weak. New cities start at 100 loyalty. Unless you are fighting Shaka and he sends an Impi Carpet of Doom, you will not be flipping anything with -5 per kill. Even Scythia horse rushes are not that large in number, AI wise on Deity. Likely this would be powerful in multiplayer because games vs humans, are wars of attrition. No one keeps units long with promotions because kills happen much more frequently than with AI. Humans also like building siege cities and forward settle cities against yours so that they can heal faster and promote units. That would kinda be a mistake against the Mapuche apparently. If they have Defender of the Faith, forget about it.

    They are definitely a Turtling Civ, with a strong culture UI (possibly). That much is certain. They kind of remind me of Ethiopia in Civ 5.

    Perhaps their traits are a counter to the Zulu?
     
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  10. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I believe Brazil used the jaguar head spearmen as well.
     
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  11. Giskler

    Giskler +1 Sleuthing

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    Perhaps the -5 loyalty per kill is intended for reconquest? Occupied cities start out at 50 loyalty and a have loyalty malus usually, so it would be more useful if you are trying to take back a city.
     
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  12. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

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    Valid point, and I coincide the ability is only useful if the city is losing loyalty or was losing loyalty and the balance is tipping to the other side (maybe a city additionally founded, the nearby cities proving loyalty grew or a governor has been stationed...). As I comment in my post, and well identified in your example above, if loyalty is growing the benefits you can get from the ability are scarce.... unless you reach 0 in that push (typical go up 4 meter / go down 3 when resting problem).

    At that point, you have caused relevant damage to your enemy (they have one city less and lost all yields coming from it, including loyalty to nearby ones), but I concede you do not want to cause damage, but get gains yourself. In that sense if you loyalty pressure is still positive, you may be in best position to flip the city peacefully to your side than your enemy (while "defending" it from incoming enemy units that try to retake it miltary). The border push is indeed annoying and I see the point and I agree this tactic is less efficient in some way than just conquering it right away. However, it is a different way to proceed, and I appreciate the different take. In that sense does allow from a different type of warfare than the conventional one, more focused in pushing back your enemies, expecting at least the cities next to your borders will flip to you eventually, without you investing effort in taking them. This tactic is however hampered by the border push, and the fact walled cities (for which the change of tactics will be most effective, as it saves you siege equipment), will be still hitting you with the city shot while rebel and invading their border.

    So I'd settle it in it being not a really efficient or overpowering mechanic, but one that provides different opportunities / challenges, ¿good?
     
  13. Datian

    Datian Warlord

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    I see two useful aspects in the -5 loyalty per kill :
    - flipping colonial cities, like the one that was settled just to invade a new continent, with a low loyalty because it's far and lonely (thematically appropriate)
    - depriving the opponent of a city without actually taking it -> less warmonger penalties : even if the city is in a crappy place and you don't want it, you don't have to raze it

    As for the "where's the synergy, are you supposed to attack an opponent during a golden age, or a dark age ?", I compare it to the khmer relics : if your opponent kills your missionaries, you will have a cultural victory, if it doesn't, then you convert its cities. You have an advantage either way.
     
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  14. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Monument+1Loyalty
    +8 Loyalty for governor
    +6 Loyalty for happiness
    +2 Loyalty for Garrison

    This is +17 Loyalty, and the maximal penalty of nearby pop is -20.

    So let's see what the Royal Navy Dockyard's +4 can do,

    It can make any city with a governor, a monument, a garrison, and a RND, with suitable happiness level, never revolt, even if being surrounded by mass enemy cities.
     
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  15. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Catherine and MT for Austria. And portray them both as young, hot, and shirtless just to even things up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
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  16. blackbutterfly

    blackbutterfly Emperor

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  17. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Swift Hawk is definitely not going to be flipping any cities with healthy loyalty. But you could use it with a pro-loyalty strategy to opportunistically flip cities with low loyalty or to hasten Free Cities to your side.

    Use your diplomat governor and various +loyalty in nearby cities and + loyalty policies to affect your neighbors' cities, laying the ground work for your units to finish the job.

    And are there not penalties production and growth penalties for a city that has low loyalty? Even if you can't flip a city, you can affect it.
     
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  18. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Mapuche analysis.

    UU: Like winged hussar, these kind of UU(cannot be upgraded to) are not useful.

    UA: +10 Strength against Golden aged Civs, very strong.

    UA: -Loyalty when defeat enemy, maybe a way to capture high-defense cities?(Make it revolt, then its strength goes down)

    UI: Seems interesting for Culture Victory.
     
  19. Architect

    Architect Prince

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    Are the warmongering penalties for taking free cities the same as taking a civ's cities?
     
  20. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    I'm pretty sure you're reading it wrong. I think that the only limits are that the total loyalty change cannot be more than 20 per turn to stop cities from flipping in under 5 turns.
     

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