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[R&F] Mapuche First Look

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Guatenadian

    Guatenadian Prince

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    I am loving this Civ! I think I found the first Civ that I'm going to play for R&F. My playstyle almost always involves turtling and sending units to pillage as many tiles as possible, the Mapuche checks all the boxes in my book! Im really happy that they have had some great feedback. A lot of the comments of Youtube arent negative! The fact that its a new Civ from South America is just the icing on the cake for me.
     
  2. conorbebe

    conorbebe King

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    I think I've come to the conclusion that although I would have preferred the Inca, and have a few gripes with some of the visuals (not with Lautaro's body though, damn), I'm in favour of the inclusion of the Mapuche.

    The civ design itself seems quite unique and fun to play, I love the colours and music, and his agenda isn't unreasonable, inappropriate, or overly annoying either!
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
    Ondolindë, Thormodr, bbbt and 6 others like this.
  3. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    NEW AGENDA: Hates other civs that wear blue
     
  4. Phrozen

    Phrozen King

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    Lautaro and Monty will have a fun interaction....
     
  5. Mort_Q

    Mort_Q Prince

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    Lautaro or Poundmaker first? Not sure.
     
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  6. Returning Lurker

    Returning Lurker Prince

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    Uh, there was only one other indigenous American IN civ 6 prior to this expansion, so that’s not quite an accomplishment.
     
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  7. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Where is 'cultural turtle' coming from? This civ seems heavily focused on aggression - combat bonus vs. civs in a golden age, combat bonus near (not in) your borders (i.e. attacking opposing border cities, and rewarding conquest since any city you take will then give you the bonus when pushing further into enemy territory), a loyalty malus to enemies when units are killed in that civ's territory - demanding the Mapuche are attacking - and a bonus for pillaging. None of that is remotely defensive, nor does this civ get any defensive bonuses. It's an aggressive warmonger civ with a bonus to culture production (which favours any sort of victory condition by pushing along the civics tree, not exclusively cultural). It's a better set of bonuses than Scythia, but it's pretty much the same civ - aggressive, cavalry-focused, just with an improvement that generates culture instead of faith. It's no more a culture civ than Scythia is a religion civ. Come to that, as cultural warrior civs go we already have England.
     
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  8. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    Okay, time for the comments report.

    So, large portion of the comments is in Spanish. Unfortunately, my native language is Czech and I've been learning only English, Russian and German as my foreign languages, so I can't read it :p However, I was happy to see people defending Mapuche's inclusion because they managed to protect themselves against the Spanish Empire. Sadly, these people are actually a minority. There are several people saying that Mapuche isn't a civilization or that they are a bad pick. And, as I predicted, there is also a quite big number of "No Ottomans?" "No Inca?" comments :p
     
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  9. ferretbacon

    ferretbacon Obsessor

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    To be fair, where are my Ottomans and Incans?! :shifty:
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  10. Phrozen

    Phrozen King

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    Combat bonus vs civs in golden ages is neither specifically an aggressive or defensive bonus. The others are defensive. If the combat bonus is worded as x tiles from your city then that would include your territory. It is a defensive civ that uses aggression in its defense. It is not there to conquer territory but rather cripple the nearest cities of the enemy through destruction of infrastructure and loyalty and gain some stuff from pillaging.

    In Civ 5 Ethiopia was defensive but was rather passive in its mechanics. The Mapuche in Civ 6 are defensive but aggressive in their mechanics.
     
  11. ChocolateShake

    ChocolateShake Prince

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    They're starting to grow on me, maybe eventually they'll be one of my favorites. I tend to like "underdog" civs, and I like their UI and colors. They seem like a great civ to roleplay, if a civ attacks you you can resist strongly and take the fight to them if you want. Otherwise you get a great culture bonus and you get to try and make your lands as appealing as possible.

    Maybe they could've gone a different way with the bonuses, but I think the design process focuses first on translating key civ aspects to mechanics. In the Scotland video Ed mentioned that they wanted Robert to have the liberation bonus, and that was a strong indicator to me that they're not favoring gameplay elements over civ flavor. I think that's a good thing even though I would prefer to have more synergy sometimes. Trying to make disparate bonuses work together can be fun!
     
  12. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    In principle, perhaps not. In practice you only have control over it if you're the one selecting who to go to war against, so it certainly favours aggression.

    Pillaging isn't defensive, and as others have already pointed out in order to rack up enough kills to have meaningful loyalty impacts on other civs' territory you're likely to need to go looking for a fight, not just beating up anything sent your way. The pillaging bonus is the same ability as the Norwegian berserker, which I wouldn't characterise as a defensive unit.

    We haven't been told that is the wording. We've been told " As a result, this unique Renaissance Era unit gets combat bonuses when fighting near friendly territory". That's fairly explicit and appears to rule out bonuses within friendly territory. It's not clear why they'd implement it as 'X tiles from your city' when tile ownership is a defined game feature that allows them to simply implement 'X tiles from a tile within your territory' .

    Civ mechanics don't really allow for that level of nuance - any bonuses that reward being aggressive reward capturing territory. Even if the combat strength ability worked the way you suggest, you'd still benefit as much from taking enemy territory as defending your own, and would find it easier to do so.
     
  13. BenSisko

    BenSisko Chieftain

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    Well, the fact that they are violent mounted raiders doesn't mean they can't go around looking fancy.

    Maybe Firaxis took inspiration from this old 19th Century's photos of a Mapuche



     
  14. Sagax

    Sagax Emperor

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    Coming to your nearby Steam stores this spring, for just $8.99!
     
  15. ferretbacon

    ferretbacon Obsessor

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    Quick, bring em on! I'd pay an unseemly price for Ottoman DLC. Color me complicit in my own exploitation.
     
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  16. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    Along with "Conquest of Constantinople" scenario, Grand Bazaar Wonder and Pamukkale Natural Wonder!

    Well... With Byzantium instead of Inca Empire... :mischief:


    Please Firaxis, make it happen, pretty please...
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
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  17. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    I hope the Mapuche AI can recognize that a neighbor is in a Golden Age and take advantage of it. That would make the Mapuche a force to be feared when you're in a golden age and quite an interesting "agent of chaos" to keep things interesting. At least trying to conquer them in a golden age will be a bad idea for sure.
     
  18. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    The best part is that I know you're trying to be all angsty, because many people have stated their dislike of DLC, but for many of us, we're looking at that $8.99 and thinking, "What kind of weird DLC has the Ottomans and Inca in the same pack? I don't even understand the scenario. Time to pre-order."

    Literally a forum dedicated to Civilization FANATICS.

    There are people on this forum who take our strategy games pretty seriously.

    As in, "I'm pretty sure I have spent more on CK2 than some people have spent on cars."
     
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  19. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    Here's my take:

    Leader ability - Swift Hawk
    • Defeating an enemy unit within enemy city range causes the city to lose loyalty
    This is interesting, at least, but I do question the usefulness. Unless the loyalty drop is a fairly high value, this could only flip cities if there are either a large number of units to defeat, or city loyalty is already low (which would have meant it was going to flip eventually anyway). When a city flips, neutral units are created, and your own troops are evicted from the city radius. I could see this being annoying. I suppose the ability could be useful for re-conquest (which is a bit pointless against an AI which is unable to capture cities). Perhaps there is also some benefit from first flipping a city before capturing it, as that gives less of a warmongering penalty. Finally, the neutral units which are created can be harvested for some experience.

    I don't know. It is interesting, but I am not sure if it is all that useful. It might have been better if Civilization 6 was a better war game.


    Civilization Ability - Toqui
    • Units trained in a city with an established governor get more experience from combat
    • +10 combat strength vs civs in a golden age
    This is pretty nice. I don't know how big the experience gain is going to be, but high level units are great (and great fun), and chances are most of your units are going to get this bonus. As for the golden age modifier, it is probably intended to be used defensively. Due to the new loyalty mechanism, I am guessing most of the time you will want to go on the offensive while in a golden age, against civs which are not in golden ages. Attacking the Mapuche like this is going to be hard, as +10 is a huge modifier.

    A powerful ability, but it might again be limited in usefulness against the AI, which is not much of a military threat.


    Unique Improvement - Chemamull (Tile improvement)
    • Gives culture based on tile appeal (75% of appeal)
    This is probably the best part of this civ for me. If this is available early, it could be a very useful thing indeed, as a early culture is very useful and often hard to come by.

    I like this one.


    Unique Unit - Malón Raider
    • Cavalry class unit
    • 55 Melee strength
    • +5 strength when withing 4 tiles of friendly territory
    • 5 movement
    • Pillage improvement only costs 1 movement point
    This seems like a fun unit. Powerful, fast, and able to pillage quickly. On the negative side, you are probably not going to be able to upgrade into it, and it will come along a bit too late in the game to be a deciding factor, I think.


    Overall, it seems like a decent civ, although I am not all that excited about playing it personally. Don't get me wrong, I think the Mapuche are interesting enough historically and culturally to justify their inclusion. It is, however, yet another civ focused on military prowess, and this one seems to be primarily focused on defense. This would have been great if Civilization 6 was a game in which you had to deal with serious military threats, but unless you are playing in multiplayer, it really isn't much of an issue. That leaves me with the unique tile improvement, which is nice.
     
  20. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    Considering how much people been bagging to get the Ottoman, it probably will get its own expansion with one Civ (Ottoman, obviously) and 9 Ottoman leaders.
     

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