Marathon question. Copper and Iron related.

[incubuspawn]

Just how bad is it to not have these in the early game, when barbarian swordsman or axemen, or ai war happens? I know everything is multiplied, however that also means more units and longer before upgrades. So is not having iron and copper a death sentence? Should I play Babylon, with thier bowmen ( bonus verse melee ) just to be on the safe side?

 

[Pir Lan Tota]

In single player, up to monarch I tend to have at least 1 copper or iron within 10 spaces of my capital in 95% of my games and both in roughly 40%, so no.

However, was playing multi with a budy of mine yesterday evening, 3 restarts due to us getting our asses whooped, in all restarts no copper or iron....

 

[Nestorius]

You are too good to use horses?

 

[incubuspawn]

You are too good to use horses?

Same issue with Iron and Copper, may not get them.

 

[Psyringe]

Copper and iron are quite common on most maps. If you research their techs early, then you'll be able to settle next to them, because at this time, most of the map is still unclaimed.

If you don't have any copper or iron in your vicinity, then the game definitely gets harder, but far from impossible. Adapt your strategy to the situation. Either make it a top priority to get hold of those resources, or play a diplomacy or culture based strategy.

 

[Crenor]

You almost always get one of the three, if not more.

 

[Mesix]

If you are a war monger than the strategic resources are important. I like to adapt my play style to the map conditions. If there are no strategic resource to build units, then I crank out the culture and wonders and try to expand to build a good commerce and production base for later in the game.

If I am trying to war monger, I will often research Animal Husbandry first. It is a useful tech for getting food resource and also reveals horses. If horses are close enough I will then tech Archery and Horseback Riding. I prefer attacking with Horse Archers to melee units. The AI typically builds very few Spearmen and even when they do, two Horse Archers will take out a Spearman.

If you have the resources and technologies, a mixed stack is obviously the best. If you are trying to rush a couple of opponents early, Horse Archers are great. They move faster to get to the enemy cities before they slave too many defenders. One can also be dedicated to razing enemy mines so that the AI only builds Archers and no melee units. Horse Archers can dominate the map until Longbowmen or Pikemen pop up.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

You almost always get one of the three, if not more.

This is true, but I think the OP is asking about the small chance that there isn't any of the 3 within a reachable early game vicinity. In that case, if you are on a more crowded map, you might be screwed. If you are on a spacey map that won't have crowded boarders for a while, you can probably survive with archers (make sure to build the Great Wall, tho).

Or you can just restart. Although on a Marathon game, restarting after getting bronze working, iron working, AND animal husbandry is like throwing away 50-60 turns (unless you popped from goody huts)

 

[Polobo]

Or you can just restart. Although on a Marathon game, restarting after getting bronze working, iron working, AND animal husbandry is like throwing away 50-60 turns (unless you popped from goody huts)

IIRC: Starting with Mining it usually takes about 45 turns just to pickup bronze working, around 30 for animal husbandry and 60ish for immediate researching on Iron Working. Call it 125-150 turns lost.

 

[Pir Lan Tota]

Researching those techs is never a loss and every turn there is a small chance you will pop either metal from a mine

Also, archers will get you through for a bit, just beeline Longbows, after that gunpowder and go musketmen on their asses

 

[Kesshi]

incubuspawn,

I'm a marathon player, and if I have no copper nearby, here's what I do:

First, I've usually scouted out a lot of places for moderate or good cities by now. If I'm pushing for rapid expansion, then I may have a 2nd or 3rd city up already.

Second, I try to time my production of a Settler to correspond with the knowledge of such an important resource revealing tech. In the event I do not have the proper resource, this lets me:

Third, settle my new city near (first ring) or on the new resource. I am not above settling on a resource to get it to my empire quicker. This is mostly true for Stone, as it is possible to build a few wonders that have a bonus to stone before researching Masonry. However, I've done this with Iron before, too.

Sure you nerf your city in the third step, but I value my empire over a single city. If moving my city center 2 spaces one direction or the other means my empire becomes that much better so many turns quicker (18 turns to build a Quarry on Marathon!), then I'm all for it.

Also, if you're playing multiplayer, there's nothing wrong with turning off the Barbarians. You'll have plenty of things to fight eventually. :lol;

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

IIRC: Starting with Mining it usually takes about 45 turns just to pickup bronze working, around 30 for animal husbandry and 60ish for immediate researching on Iron Working. Call it 125-150 turns lost.

Not how I play. I maximize commerce in the area. If your starting city has all food resources, that may be true. But if you start with gold, silver, etc etc in your fat cross, your research times can be a third less than that. You can't put a general rule for turns to a tech in this game. There are too many variables even right when you start.

 

[Polobo]

Third, settle my new city near (first ring) or on the new resource. I am not above settling on a resource to get it to my empire quicker. This is mostly true for Stone, as it is possible to build a few wonders that have a bonus to stone before researching Masonry. However, I've done this with Iron before, too.

You do NOT get access to a visible resource unless you have the proper technology to enable its harvesting (this applies to forts as well). Thus settling on stone without knowing Masonry means you only get a +1 hammer in your city; you do not get the stone resource. The only advantage is that once you do get the necessary technology you do not need to spend worker turns building the improvement and a road (though you need to connect the city itself).

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

If you settle on stone and research masonry, does the city tile act as if it has a quarry on it? IE do you get the hammer bonus a quarry offers automatically? If not, I would NEVER settle on top of a resource like that.

 

[Supr49er]

Mansa Musa is hard to beat in hooking up Iron/Copper.

He's the only leader that starts with The Wheel and Mining.

Every games I've played as him gives me Iron or Copper nearby.

 

[Polobo]

Not how I play. I maximize commerce in the area. If your starting city has all food resources, that may be true. But if you start with gold, silver, etc etc in your fat cross, your research times can be a third less than that. You can't put a general rule for turns to a tech in this game. There are too many variables even right when you start.

True enough, I am just trying to give a more accurate (and somewhat worst case) estimate. I should have stated that the start has no super commerce tiles, and given my technology order I assumed you don't have pottery. Of course financial, oasis, seafood/fishing will speed things up but "worst case" is you have to work a couple of forests early while you chop some land to open up river commerce.


Even with gold/silver in the fat cross you need to spend 30 turns to get a worker then 12 (15?) more to build a mine. With Iron Working considering these worked improved tiles reasonable but if your starting techs are farming/mining and immediately research animal husbandry and bronze working you are not going to be working an improved gold mine or water tiles; otherwise you need 10-20 turns to research pre-requisites as well. I still think your 40-50 turns wasted number is low even in a best case scenario but I'll leave the best-case scenario math up to you or someone else who feels so inclined.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

That is a really bad situation you are going on. At that point it doesn't matter how many turns you spent. A restart is viable. No luxury resource tiles/copper/iron/horses AND a civ that doesn't start with mining? WOW!

I get your point though.

 

[AfterShafter]

I run resourceless armies all the time... But I'm also a bit of a protective fanatic. REX early, buckle down with archers, get my hands on longbows and catapults ASAP. Sure, you've got a bit of a wait, but longbows and construction aren't THAT far off...

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Protective is really the answer to that, though. If you don't have Prot trait, You can only really get CG I archers before feudalism (or Theocracy). Until then, you have to really pump out archer units to fend off barbs and dissuade a violent neighbor who has axemen and swordsmen and potentially horse archers as well. That's a lot of hammers devoted to defense. After all is said and done, isn't it just less frustrating to restart? I guess at that point, it's a personal question. Some people want to really stick it out as long as possible, others (like me) would rather restart.

 

[Polobo]

If you settle on stone and research masonry, does the city tile act as if it has a quarry on it? IE do you get the hammer bonus a quarry offers automatically? If not, I would NEVER settle on top of a resource like that.

No it does not. It acts like a fort in that you get the natural tile yields (i.e., no improvements) but still get access to the actual resource (i.e., stone).

The way I look at it I must have a convincing reason to settle on a resource otherwise I will settle near it and build the proper improvement.