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Marathon speed is broken?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by manarod, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. Ever Adrift

    Ever Adrift Warlord

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    But using the x2 marathon mod and 25% Eureka mod is one way to fix marathon, at least partially. The problem, insofar as I'm concerned, is that in non-modded marathon, the costs of districts, buildings, units, etc. are all increased almost in direct proportion to the increased tech/cultural tree costs. By using those mods, you make the tech and culture trees disproportionately longer compared to costs (which is a good thing). That fixes the problem.
     
    nzcamel and Xur like this.
  2. Exodite

    Exodite Chieftain

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    Marathon speed, or any speed that's not the default, is indeed completely broken in the game but it's not due to unit cost scaling.

    More expensive units makes sense, as slower game speeds are mainly ways to get more play into each era rather than encourage more warmongering.

    If you want an idea of things that are broken, ie. don't scale properly with game speed, then a non-exhaustive list might be...

    • Unit XP. This actually does scale, only it shouldn't as you're not going to fight more units on Marathon - or fewer on Online speed. I've wiped an entire continent of enemy civilizations with 2 melee units and 3 archers (arguably a different issue) - destroying some 50-60 enemy units and bombarded/taken every city on the continent (early game so not that many) and one of those units made level 3 (the others being level 2, you start at 1). Most hilarious example is Scout units as the major source of XP is static (finding Natural Wonders, tribal villages etc.) and the amount don't scale with game speed. But hey, with the right policy you only need to find 14 Natural Wonders and/or tribal villages to get to level 3.
    • Tribal village rewards and gold from clearing barbarian camps don't scale. With the previous patch they actually had clearing camps on Marathon showing as triple the amount of gold in the UI - only it still only actually added the default amount to your treasury. With the summer patch they fixed this... by moving the UI back to the default speed number.
    • Game difficulty AI bonuses. Since the AI gets a lot of up-front bonuses on higher difficulties, additional units, settlers and techs, this allows for more snowballing when everyone is that much further away from parity - turn-wise.
    • District cost scaling. Having a relatively new city in the mid-game queued up to build its first district and looking at a 300+ turn timer is just sad. I can't say for sure whether this is bugged or not but it feels like the scaling is based upon how many points are sunk into your Tech/Civic development rather than how far along the tree you are.
    • District projects. While you're never really going to have the production to spare for these didn't (use to, not tested recently) give any extra GPP on completion. They still took three times as long to finish though.
    • Trading single-shot items like great works or whatever doesn't account for different value at different game speeds.
    • Something is weird about religious pressure and manual spreading (via missionaries and apostles). Again, not recently tested but it felt like the static pressure on manual spreads didn't scale properly.
    • Civilizations that lack benefits before the mid-to-late game (like, say, France) are really boring options on slower game speeds.
    • Barbarians will still vomit out units in groups of 3 post-haste. Be ready.
    • Literally anything in the game that gives a static benefit, as opposed to per-turn modifiers, is very likely not scaling properly. Units that give Great General points on kills? City conversion bonuses for your Apostles? The policy for building Neighborhoods on Farms? Whatever.
    If I seem bitter about it that's because I am. Civ 5 still doesn't scale correctly at Marathon but it was never as bad as Civ 6 in this regard, to which is added all the general bugs and design problems with the latter.

    I were fine with the first post-release patch not properly addressing game speed scaling issues but we're past critical bugs (or we should be at least...) and well into additional content releases and balancing now, with a basic aspect of the game being completely non-functional while staring down the first expansion. Heck, they keep compounding the issue with every new mechanic or tweak they add similarly failing to scale properly.

    As long as you're willing to forego using several game systems, or relying on static bonuses in any way, the Marathon game is arguably playable but honestly if you want to get the most out of the game I would play at Standard. Possibly Epic, with similar but lessened caveats. Faster speeds, Quick and Online, are similarly broken albeit for the opposite reason - any non-scaling mechanic is busted AF.
     
    Karmah and need my speed like this.
  3. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Where did you get the idea that everything has to scale with game pace?
    And that everything should be subject to an immutable simple scaling law,
    e.g. double the game time => all units take twice as long to produce?

    Treat each pace as a different style of game and there's no "problem".
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  4. Kurnn

    Kurnn Warlord

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    I dont agree at all that Marathon is "to slow". In fact, its way to fast.

    There is a fantastic mod called "Take your time", that increases the research time for techs and policies by a factor of 2, 3 or 5.
    I always use the x3 (On Marathon) and now the game works well!
     
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  5. Kurnn

    Kurnn Warlord

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    Exactly! Well put!
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  6. Exodite

    Exodite Chieftain

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    Yeah, no, that's just not true.

    It's pretty well outlined in my post but the short short version is that many, if not all, game systems are completely broken on any game speed but the default due to scaling not being properly implemented.

    Ignoring the other bugs and issues with the game, playing at a different game speed isn't just "different". It's simply "less".
     
    Karmah likes this.
  7. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    I only play on ludicrous size (230 x 115) maps at marathon pace, with 25 civs
    and 60 city-states. Win or lose, I've enjoyed every game since shortly after the
    release of Civ6. Playing at a faster pace, or on smaller maps size feels like
    tic-tac-toe, or Civ < 6.

    I found that other civs have longer to establish themselves and avoid getting
    crushed by a lucky close neighbour. That makes them very tough opponents at
    Emperor level where they get extra units and other goodies.

    Using the same map and the same movement points for units in a game at a
    different pace, might as well be considered to be a different game.
    Tactics and long-term strategies are very different.

    Scaling some aspects linearly is sensible, but in such a highly non-linear
    setting they can't compensate for the movement points and the different
    interactions between civs.

    Hahaha. You're in for a long period of suffering then.
    We're not even close to the point after release at which Civ5 became less buggy
    and enjoyable. It was a horrible mess compared to Civ6.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2017
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  8. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Yea, no, beg to differ.

    Marathon + is the only way to fly.
     
  9. Exodite

    Exodite Chieftain

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    I feel you're both missing the point I'm trying to make.

    I absolutely agree that playing Marathon speed is the way to go for me personally, because - like yourselves - I find the game far too fast-paced on the quicker speeds which leaves little time for empire-building. Which is what I like most about the series.

    I would also agree with the fact that playing on Marathon, or any game speed that's not the default, very much changes how the game plays out. However, that's not what I'm talking about here - nor is it a particularly compelling argument because the same thing could be said for the difficulty settings, the map settings, the density of civs or single player vs. multiplayer and so on.

    What I'm talking about is the bugs.

    Since unit XP have negative scaling that doesn't offer a "different" experience on Marathon - that just means tier3+ unit abilities effectively don't exist. And, conversely, that those abilities are the norm on faster game speeds.

    Since district project GPP don't scale they don't offer a "different" experience on Marathon - it just means they're a complete waste of resources.

    Since tribal village rewards don't scale they don't offer "different" experience on Marathon - it just means most of the result are blanks and, hence, arbitrarily unbalanced. You should probably disable those for balance purposes unless you're playing on normal speed.

    And so on and so forth regarding difficulty level, religious unit spreading, barbarian camps, district cost scaling, gold trading, promotions/abilities/governments/policies that give static bonuses etc.

    Sure, many of these are things that are easy to ignore and others are poorly balanced or outright buggy to begin with - regardless of game speed - but this has never been a feature. Playing on a different game speed than Standard results in a different playing experience, that's always been the case.

    That's not a good enough reason to lock people out of many major mechanics of the game, or a reason at all.

    It's just bugs, bugs that are in most cases trivial to address and should have been fixed long ago.
     
    Karmah likes this.
  10. Canadian Bluebeer

    Canadian Bluebeer Prince

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    On the larger maps, marthon is nice, since it takes so long to get from one side to the other.

    I always play on marathon. Just don't like the feel of the 'normal' speed. Too 'zippy'.
    :)
     
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  11. Kurnn

    Kurnn Warlord

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    Wooooaw!

    I thought I was extreme in wanting tons of civs, a huge map everything against me!

    Respect dude! :thumbsup:
     
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  12. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

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    That's hardcore. I play Epic speed with x2 tech and civic costs, which seems to cause techs to arrive at about the right date and gives you the opportunity to use units at every tier before obsolescence.

    It would be great if Firaxis could add tech and civic cost increases to the base game so we can get achievements.
     
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  13. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Dan Quayle could get techs around the right date, but the
    real challenge is to do much better than that bozo.
     
    Karmah likes this.
  14. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

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    I don't like it when it's 500AD and all the civs are cranking out ironclads. Even less good when there are still many turns left to run and everyone has reached the end of the tech trees.
     

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