Marathon Speed - Tradeoffs

[vorlon_mi]

As noted in this thread https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/advice-for-gemini-difficulty.692352/, I started a game as Franco-Iberia, on Marathon Speed. It's my first game at Marathon, so I wanted to share some thoughts on strategies and tradeoffs.

Main Difference: Although this seems obvious, everything takes longer. Nearly every action: buildings and units take longer to build; explorer expeditions take longer to complete research takes more science to finish a tech. Units (once you build or buy them) still move the same number of tiles per turn.

Risk Avoidance: My normal gameplay involves avoiding some risks in the early game. I avoid sending newbie soldiers (infantry or armor) into nests of aliens; I avoid Krakens who can one-shot my navy or explorers. But the length of time it takes to replace a unit at Marathon speed drives me to be even more careful, moving one tile at a time so that I can see potential hazards. I really don't want to lose a trade convoy to aliens, so I chose to build the Ultrasonic Fence and wait for its quest to kick in before starting any trade routes.
In this game I'm emphasizing growth, to avoid being picked on because I'm small. At the same time, I want to carefully choose the location for each city to avoid even the appearance of forward settling an opponent. I have two cities on turn 130, with two more colonists about to set out in the next 10 turns. All 4 cities so far have been land-based (actual and planned), while my 5th may be aquatic.
For diplomacy, I've tried to make friends with my neighbors. I got two of them to Cooperating, even though spending that diplo capital delayed choosing Personality traits. This has helped avoid some of the trash talk that @MarqFJA87 experienced in his game. One opponent (Kozlov) who is furtherst from me is not happy that I'm cooperating with one of my friends, but I'm not as worried about him. He seems to pick fights with his closer neighbors/enemies.

Choices of Virtues and Techs: With acquisitions being SO SLOW, the first choices seem to be more important. My loadout included Pioneering, so I could build Colonists right away. In order, ,my first techs were:

1. Ecology, started turn 0 for the UFence and protect my traders
2. Physics, started turn 82 for Rangers/Gunners, protect my cities and distance attack a Siege Worm
3. Chemistry, started turn 126 so I could improve the oil near my cities

I usually beeline the Prosperity virtues for extra Explorer modules. This game, I did take Frugality (the Prosperity opener) as my first virtue on turn 30. But after thinking more about the pacing, I switched to the Might side for the next 3 virtues.

1. Frugality (Prosp) on turn 30
2. Adaptive Tactics (Might) on turn 43
3. Survivalism (Might) on turn 70
4. Scavenging (Might, level 2) on turn 115

Alternate Sources of Yields: Trying to accumulate science, gold, and culture through buildings or artifacts alone is going to be too slow. In due course, I can get my espionage empire going, which will let me steal gold/energy through missions. But that will required building the Spy Agency (dozens of turns) and the missions... how long wil those take? At standard speed, the first "Siphon Energy" missions take 25 turns. How long on Marathon?
WIth the right choices of Virtues and Character Traits, I can make killing aliens with city shots and ranged units profitable. I chose the Honorable military trait, that rewards some culture with each unit killed. I pursued Scavenging (above) so that I can get some science from each alien killed. I nearly always choose the Subtle Political trait for improved spy missions, but this time I chose Generous: I'm concerned I may need to cash-purchase units in a pinch. After my first war, I may switch to Subtle. I've delayed choosing a Domestic trait, trying to decide between Industrialist (for production boost) or Innovative (for science boost).

Baby Steps ... I feel like I'm moving so slowly, playing defense all the time. Do any of you have more experience at Marathon Speed? In other civ games, at Marathon speed?
I'll post again around turn 200 or 250.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Turn 240 Updates...

Talking Trash and War: At turn 200, I reached Cooperating status with 3 factions, including my two closest neighbors. One of them was #2 on the score list, while I was 7th (second from bottom). Not that the score means much, when one has 280 and the other has 310. By turn 235, one of my Cooperating neighbors (PAU) had grown to #1 on the score list; I had grown to #6. Two sponsors lowered their opinion of me to Sanctioned. One of the neutrals declared on me on turn 210 (NSA), but his cities were far away. SF declared on turn 214, but he was even further away. Brasil, one of my close neighbors and a potential warmonger, lowered me to Neutral around turn 180, but not lower.
A key factor that is NOT lengthened at Marathon speed: willingness to accept peace. In my last 8 games or so at standard speed, I kept notes on which turns the AI declared on each other and which turns they eventually made peace with each other. Wars always lasted at least 25 turns and showed a clear trend for peace on the 25th turn.
I saw no NSA or SF troops or navy anywhere near my territory. Kozlov accepted a "white peace" 25 turns later. Duncan had killed one of my far-ranging Explorers with a ranged ship, but that was it. He also accepted a "white peace" after 25 turns.

Pay close attention to the relations with your neighbors, in the early-game and mid-game. Having far away sponsors angry with you can be tiresome, or a potential risk to a trader with a faraway station, but their anger is not a threat to your growth or victory. I've grown to #6 on the list, by turn 235.

SLOW Affinity Growth: Yes, I've met everyone. I had met everyone by turn 130. For some, I only know about their capital. But I can infer things about their start (and its quality terrain) by checking their affinities through the Diplo Summary screen. Turn 235 report

Civ	Status
NSA	0/1/2 Sanctioned
FI (me)	2/2/0 (Harmony / Purity / Supremacy)
SF	1/3/2 War (would make peace on turn 239) #2 in score
Chungsu	2/0/2 Sanctioned
KP	2/0/2
INTEGR	0/3/0 Cooperating #3 in score
Brasil	1/2/2
PAU	2/2/0 Cooperating #1 in score

The rate of affinity growth is pretty uniform. Those sponsors with higher scores must have larger cities, perhaps even taken one from a neighbor. Those with higher total affinity (SF, total of 6) are clearly expanding wide and tall. Nobody has enough affinity to get to level 2 for their troops.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Turn 400 Update: Marathon speed is an acquired taste. The overall pace through the tech web is so slow. I've done more restoring from saves than at standard speed. My affinity is 6//3/2. If this were standard speed, I would have finished by now.

Nobody Likes Me Except You: In one of my other threads here, I asked about overall leader tendencies. Samatar (from PAU) has usually been relatively easy to get to Cooperating in most games. A very loyal friend. Literally every other sponsor has lowered me to Sanctioned and declared on me. All but two are too far away to march land troops towards me, while the snaky landmasses make it very hard to get naval vessels to my area. So we "dance", pretending to war for 25 turns, and settle for a white peace. Becoming tedious.
My one-time buddy, Lena, turned sour about the time I passed her on the scoreboard. She was able to send some land troops through PAU to approach one of my cities. Nearly all were weakened from miasma, so they were easy pickings. I'm not sure what will be required to make any of the others stop being angry. Perhaps an affinity buff, or a few more veteran units?

Lucky Expeditions, Unlucky Explorers: Only 3 artifacts, but not a useful result from combining them. In one of my expeditions at a Progenitor site, I picked up part 1 of the Signal. Hurrah! But the units themselves keep being ambushed by aliens. I may need to start escorting them with submarines.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Turn 440 Update: Yup, just about everything takes 3 times as long at Marathon Speed. I don't want to think about how long it would take for a Mind Flower or Beacon to connect. <shudder>

Covert Agents that 15 turns to travel to a niew city; just gaining sources takes another 15 turns. The very first mission (Siphon Energy) takes 75 turns.

I got a quest that I don't remember having before. Finding survivors in a crash site called "the Augments." Since I'm kinda/sorta emphasizing Harmony affinity in this game, I made the choices in the quest to get the Harmony reward. The result is that it asks me to destroy the new station that they founded. Ugh. I don't really need another military adventure, especially since all of the other leaders (except 1) are taking turns declaring on me. In retrospect, I should have taken one of the other paths and made a trade route with the Augments, to get a buff in a different affinity.

Forecasting a win around turn 900 or so. Hope that the game max turn counter is also increased for Marathon speed.

 

[MarqFJA87]

You play with Max Turns on? I always turn that off, never saw the point in it being enabled.

 

[vorlon_mi]

No, I don't usually. The mainline civ games have a max turn limit, for their "score" victory condition. I assumed that BERT had one as well.
No, I haven't turned it on. I'm using the default settings.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Turn 500 update: Cue the evil grins...
Sent an Explorer, escorted by a sub, to a Progenitor site next to a two-tile island.
Rewards: a free affinity level. Gets me to 8 in Harmony, which means no damage from miasma.
Also a progenitor artifact, which when combined with an OE artifact and alien artifact give me... Sky Chitin!

The nearest Brasil city is within air range now. I've been watching Reijnaldo move his units around in the miasma each time he declares on me. My ally is a toxic cloud With air cover and level 2 tanks, I'm ready when he makes trouble again.

Back to one of the original questions that started this thread: Why are the AI players so hostile?
I checked the personality traits that each leader has adopted. 5 of the 8 chose to like/dislike players based on their most powerful units. Many other chose the trait where they like/dislike based on combat kills. Only Samatar (PAU) still likes me a lot. He chose traits differently and maintains Cooperating with 4 sponsors and Neutral with the rest. That's consistent with my observations in other games where he is present -- easy to befriend, rarely declares on others. If he has a fertile start, he will expand a LOT. If he doesn't, he may become a punching bag for a sponsor who did have a fertile start.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Turn 650 Update... approaching the end game.
I completed Decode Signal, so I can begin the Beacon when I want. In my other thread for Contact Victories, I found that the objectors for this victory are mostly random. They usually include one of my closest neighbors.
My closest neighbor, Brasil, is no more. All of his cities are part of my empire, puppet first, then annexed. Positive health, with Clinics and Cytonurseries everywhere. Total of 8 artifacts extracted, with 3 used for Sky Chitin. I can use the ones remaining to get Machine-Assisted Free Will or Soul Discerner Training. I think I will go for faster covert ops, so that I can refill my energy reserves after I ignite the Beacon.
The remaining sponsors are far from a victory condition, save one.

Harmony in Africa: Samatar, who is #1 in score (I'm #2) has taken several cities from INTEGR. Multiple large cities. He has researched all of the techs to build a Mind Flower (turn 608) and has reached level 15 in Harmony (turn 647). I've got covert agents in and around his capital, to see when he starts construction. We share a border, where my southeast cities are near his southwest cities.

At what point do I attack? I could declare on him preemptively, chew up some of his troops, which might encourage him to delay starting the MF. I could wait until I start building the Beacon and see if he is one of the objectors. I've set my cities to emphasize energy as well as produce units for the coming war. His capital is central, land-locked, and well defended. Even if he's not one of the objectors, I will still need to invade to destroy his MF.

Wonder Building Race: My Beacon will take 70 odd turns to build in my capital, with trade routes adding to base production. His Mind Flower may also take that many turns to build, but he could have build accelerator buildings. If our wonders finished at the same time, his would win first.

Current Plan: Finish the Water Refinery in my capital, which will take about 7 turns. Then start the Beacon and see what happens. I have the tiles surrounding my choke point city filled with units and 3 planes stationed there. If he objects and tries to invade quickly, I can hold him off. As I take some of his southwest cities, I can move my planes up and work my way towards the capital. Very few of his cities are coastal or aquatic, so my navy will be less important.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Diplomacy: Once I made it to #2 in score, suddenly everyone seem to think I was OK. Got more sponsors to Cooperating.

Endgame - started my Beacon on turn 657

Faction	Affinity	Relationship / Score Rank / Objection
NSA	4/5/7	Cooperating, 3 cities
FI (me)	12/9/7	#2 in score
SF	7/10/6	Neutral, #3 in score, OBJECTED
Chungsu	7/4/4	Cooperating, 4 cities
KP	8/5/10	Cooperating
INTEGR	7/9/5	Neutral, 3 cities
Brasil	4/4/6	DEAD on turn 609
PAU	15/8/7	Cooperating, #1 in score, OBJECTED

Based on other Contact victories, I expected these objectors, as they were both near the top of the scoreboard and were on my landmass.
I had some trade routes to my capital, had acquired the Industry virtue, had two Manufactories, but had not built the Crawler. Time to build the Beacon was predicted at 63 turns.

Maneuvering and War: I downgraded Samatar to Neutral, so that he couldn't attack while on my territory. He did start moving some troops into the southern isthmus that we shared. I moved 6 planes into position, in cities just off the soon-to-be frontline. On turn 667, I declared on PAU, since he had embarked a few units which made them more vulnerable to air strikes. My spies reported that Samatar continue to build units, not start the Mind Flower. I didn't see him build any accelerator buildings, but I only focused my spies on PAU when he got to affinity 15.

No real movement on the western frontier, near my border with Kozov. However, even without troops, SF declared on me the next turn. Great, a two front war <sarcasm>

Marathon Speed Production Handicaps: These limits applied to both PAU and my empire. Units lost would be hard to replace. Air strikes are pretty OP on standard speed; they are even more overpowered at Marathon speed. I trashed his invasion force in just a few turns, with a response force that felt small: 2-3 Level 3 tanks, 3-4 Level 3 infantry, and a couple of level 3 gunners. But I took 3 of his land cities only losing a couple units. I sent my navy through the southern channel -- between the isthmus and the ice -- to attack PAU's southern coastal cities.
Kozlov was messing around, trying to forward settle me... after turn 660! I blasted his outpost and put up a spy satellite to watch for his troops.

War Progress - 25 turns even for objectors? All game, I had observed that the AI would often accept peace terms no sooner than 25 turns from war being declared. This timing was the same as standard speed. As I got past turn 690, I wondered if the AI who had objected would also accept peace, or would fight on to stop my attempt to win. I was rolling up the score on PAU, having over 10000 in war score by turn 697.
Yes, PAU finally would consider a peace offer on turn 699. I took all of his cities (except the new capital), having conquered Magan with only airpower, 1 infantry and one tank.
On the other front, I had picked up the Might virtue which lets me replace a conquered outpost with one of my own. SF tried to plant an outpost 5 tiles from one of my cities (former Brasil). I conquered that outpost and refused his offer of peace. His offer included a city way far off, hard to defend. I took another of his cities and killed a Xeno Titan. That surpised me, as Kozlov had been favoring Purity. I asked him for peace, to grab one of his aquatic cities right next to my border -- much easier to defend.

As of turn 700, I'm now #1 in score, with Kozlov #2 and KP #3. I expect Kozlov to declare again in 10 turns or so. Fortunately for me, he has few friends.

PAU, now playing an OCC (One City Challenge), has allied himself with NSA. This behavior is something I've seen happen in the late game, as a sponsor tries to hang onto life. I moved my planes into position, along with my two land units. If Samatar also declares in 10 turns or so, I should be able to snuff him out before NSA does much damage to my less defended puppet cities.