March

[Emptiness]

Things I consider problematic:

1) One of the recent patches removed the increased regeneration from Combat V (or was it III, IV, V?) and put it into March (which requires Combat III). Not only did this make March very powerful (possibly more so than it should be), but it had one serious repercussion:
(Almost?) All unit classes can get Combat V, but only very few can get March (in fact, only melee, disciple and beast).

The effect? It takes much, much longer to heal than before for those unit classes that cannot get March. It's even more annoying for HEROES which cannot get March - your most powerful (and more importantly fun) units take an eternity to regenerate...

This alone is annoying, but it becomes even worse in combination with the Poisoned promotion (which all units with Poison Strength apply to their opponents after combat) - I've had units (with lots of experience) needing something like 27 turns to heal - they could not get a single promotion improving their healing rate...

I don't think allowing March for all unit classes is the right solution. To the contrary, it would make some units, like those with lots of mobility (like the Hippus mounted units) even more powerful because one would need even less turns to heal between hit & run attempts.

I'm not sure I have a better solution. I guess Combat was too strong before? What about giving Combat III, IV and V at least half their former values back (5%, 5%, 5% instead of their former values of 10%, 10%, 10%) while reducing the numbers of March in a similar fashion (5%, 5%, 5%)? Right now, March is probably too powerful (which hurts units which cannot get it), and this change would at the very least help against the problems with Poisoned...
Alternatively, one could make some other, currently underpowered promotion (like Defensive) available to all unit classes and move the entire healing bonuses from March to this promotion.
In any case, no matter what the final solution looks like, it is imperative that all unit classes have some access to increased healing - this is a factor that really slows down gameplay right now.

being the guy that basically caused the change to Combat IV-V healing rates, I can tell ya it was changed because otherwise under certain circumstances ( poison for example ) units would heal a lot faster in neutral/enemy territory than in friendly territory. that said, I definitely see where you're coming from that this changed somehow nerfed combat and improved march, ultimately nerfing those units that cannot gain march. so, something could be needed to reach a balance here. just not sure what.

I have two suggestions, either of which would make up for the imbalance that the change to March created:

• Create a promotion, available to any units (except naval or siege) that cannot get March, which increases heal rates like March does but without the heal-while-moving ability. This would allow the neglected unit types to earn increased healing without unbalancing mounted units by allowing them to move and heal.

• Remove the increased healing from March (ie reverse the change to March) and create a new promotion which is available to all units (except naval or siege) that provides the increased healing abilities that are currently bundled with March.

 

[orgonebox]

I suggested at some point that march should be allowed to the archery line, given that archers play some role in a regular army.

Another option which I think would be very cool would be a terrain hide ability for recon units. The ability would only be effective while the unit was sitting still, and would give the unit time to sit and heal provided the unit had promoted through woodsman/guerrilla I to the terrain hide ability.

A universal heal promotion would probably be too powerful, and eliminate the usefulness of basic disciple units.

 

[petepetepetep]

The recon line could, in my opinion, have need of something to mitigate the severe effects of poison, but for every other situation you should probably just bring a priest. Speaking of which, can't the CoE get some kind of healing capability? I know Esus is a jerk when it comes to miracles, but maybe a basic disciple unit that you have to pay money for wouldn't be too much to ask?

 

[Jules.lt]

A universal heal promotion would probably be too powerful, and eliminate the usefulness of basic disciple units.

Doesn't it add up?

Anyway, the units you need the most healing for are melee units, and march certainly didn't obsolete priests for them: it still takes some promotions to get it.

 

[Pike the Hands]

Create a promotion, available to any units (except naval or siege) that cannot get March, which increases heal rates like March does but without the heal-while-moving ability. This would allow the neglected unit types to earn increased healing without unbalancing mounted units by allowing them to move and heal.

Courage (Spirit I spell) already does this. Regenerate (Body II) is like a free March to all units in the caster's stack.

 

[Emptiness]

Yes, but I mean a new promotion. Also, I mean a promotion, as in a permanent ability purchased with a level-up. I certainly don't think it would be appropriate for units to be purchasing Courage or Regeneration.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting a new promotion to increase heal rates because there is currently a lack of ways to do that. I'm making the suggestion to rebalance the imbalance MondSemmel has suggested was introduced by the changes made to March and the Combat line of promotions. The fact that there are other ways for a unit to heal, including bringing a priest, is irrelevant. Or perhaps the existance of the Heal spell is reason enough to remove all other healing effect from the mod?

 

[WarKirby]

Mounted units should be able to get march, and recon units too. Having Rosier/Valin unable to heal while moving just doesn't feel right.
Just my $0.02

 

[MaxAstro]

I always fix this by adding a "First Aid" promotion at combat 2 that gives +10 heal rate in friendly/neutral terrain and is available to non-mechanical units.

Mounted units with March would probably be overpowered; their need to heal after raiding is one of their major limitations.

Recon units with March seems unthematic, but probably not unbalanced. Except maybe in the case of assassin-type units.

You could specifically allow any unit with Hero to promote to March, I think. Or just have the Hero promotion give heal on move.

 

[Capn Charlie]

Having been on the recieving turn of more than one hippus hoof-stomp, I have to concur, and say that common mounted units with march would be just too uber, if the ai can figure out how to use regenerate properly, I'm screwed as is.

 

[Mesix]

Just send stacks into enemy territory accompanied by the high priest unit of your chosen religion. After attacking, have all high priests cast heal on the stack and the problem is solved. No need for extra promotions to be added. Your mounted hero with five movement, blitz, and commando can attack five times per turn and still heal at the end of the turn.

 

[WarKirby]

except, high priests aren't so easy to get and they require theology which is kind of a late tech

 

[Capn Charlie]

except, high priests aren't so easy to get and they require theology which is kind of a late tech

I've had setups where I was producing a 5 promotion mounted unit every turn, supplemented by 3 prom mounted units every other turn from a half dozen cities. Every, oh, five to ten turns I'd have this giant blob of raiding flanking never gonna die terror pillaging every tile in a civ, and then usually crushing the cities, or at least making enough havoc that my enemy could do nothing but focus on them, meanwhile the new stack was on its way.

March cavalry would never die... ever. And if they did, it wouldn't matter.

 

[WarKirby]

And I've had setups where I had an unstoppable wave of archmage and cultist-supported phalanxes, damaging everything in a wide radius with maelstrom, and tsunami, casting wonder several times per turn, and then crushing the remnants effortlessly with an assortment of stupidly powerful units.


This doesn't make a point at all. The most extreme examples exist of every tactic, it doesn't mean they are or aren't overpowered. The only issue I can see in the above is that Ride of the Nine Kings might be too powerful.

On another note, I really think cavalry should have a city strength penalty.....

 

[Capn Charlie]

Meh, fine, let me put it to you another way. Spamming horse archers and such is an incredibly effective tactic with a very low distributed risk. If I'm running a mage/caster strategy, and those units are eliminated, it doesn't really matter. Conversely, these early era cavalry units are expendable, mass produce-able, and already teetering on too good. I'm not saying march will break them, just that it might be too good already, and march is another step in the wrong direction.

With a city attack penalty? I guess, it might not be too terrible, but I'm already considering a "homeguard" type unit that can use the patrol ability on land, due to seeing my fifth cottage economy strategy wrecked by one freaking ai and some horsehockey t2-t3 units I can't reliably catch and kill.

After an average horsey assaault from just the ai, I see a half dozen or more wounded survivors from the slaughter at my walls running around, with march they could theoretically continue withdrawing and healing, and not be invincible, just incredibly long lived and hard to swat. To the point of it being micromanagement to even try to chase them down.

 

[zup]

What annoys me is that once a unit defensively retreats in my borders, it gets instanly moved outside. No matter it could be 10 turns walking distance with its movement. Against Hippus cavalry it is insane. Oh I have 99.9% chance of winning because I'm so strong. No matter, 17 of 20 horsemen and horse archers get out of harms way and there is nothing, absolutely nothing I can do. The only way to fight them is to kill them right away, at the warrior stage.

 

[Capn Charlie]

What annoys me is that once a unit defensively retreats in my borders, it gets instanly moved outside. No matter it could be 10 turns walking distance with its movement. Against Hippus cavalry it is insane. Oh I have 99.9% chance of winning because I'm so strong. No matter, 17 of 20 horsemen and horse archers get out of harms way and there is nothing, absolutely nothing I can do. The only way to fight them is to kill them right away, at the warrior stage.

Amen, brother, screw them, and the miserable horses they rode in, and away, on.

 

[renardargent]

What annoys me is that once a unit defensively retreats in my borders, it gets instanly moved outside. No matter it could be 10 turns walking distance with its movement. Against Hippus cavalry it is insane. Oh I have 99.9% chance of winning because I'm so strong. No matter, 17 of 20 horsemen and horse archers get out of harms way and there is nothing, absolutely nothing I can do. The only way to fight them is to kill them right away, at the warrior stage.

Have not tried it myself, but would making those horses immobile through some spells and ability, namely blinding light and entangle, work?
As I skimmed through the change log a moment before, it stated that from patch k, immobile units cannot defensively retreat. I thought it might become handy when getting rid of cavalries and Loki.
Sorry if I was just parotting something everybody is already aware of .

 

[Blackmantle]

What annoys me is that once a unit defensively retreats in my borders, it gets instanly moved outside. No matter it could be 10 turns walking distance with its movement. Against Hippus cavalry it is insane. Oh I have 99.9% chance of winning because I'm so strong. No matter, 17 of 20 horsemen and horse archers get out of harms way and there is nothing, absolutely nothing I can do. The only way to fight them is to kill them right away, at the warrior stage.

Play "Against the Wall" scenario and enjoy this part of the withdrawl mechanics for a change.
Oh, and many a player might actually agree that squashing the hippus before they get horses is actually quite an excellent idea. Tasunke can be quite a hassle...
The Ride is one of the few real good lategame wonders. Cutting / nerfing it would be a loss not a gain imo.


@ Discussion about the mounted line: Its actually one of the weakest lines in the game (save for the Hippus cavalry or Amelanchiers cavalry of course...). Thats hardly something that qualifies for a nerf, does it?

And that late-game units can wipe the floor with armies is actually a very good thing imo. That speeds up the late game (which many a player still seems to dislike enough to restart outright when the outcome of a game is clear. Any nerfs in Tier 4 whould make that part of the game even more of a drag. Screw Balance here... Sometime a game has to end. There is always the possibility to start a new one.)

 

[zup]

I was talking about horsemen that iron armed, guerilla 2 soldiers of Kilmorph cannot kill. Nevermind they hang in a hill castle across a river (which the horse shaggers absolutely have to cross) and even have a thane to heal them.

 

[WarKirby]

Some thoughts about withdrawal chances.

Each archer or mounted unit in the defending stack, should reduce the withdrawal chance a bit. As they could shoot/chase down the fleeing horsemen.

Attacking across a river should reduce withdrawal chance to 0%, unless the attacking unit has Amphibious. Chance would only be halved instead, if there's a bridge across the river.