marines and paratroopers suck
- Thread starter bball768
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philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
They are good in curtain situations..what are you gonna do when the other enemy civ is on a 1-tile island?
You can then only win by atacking with marines.
they are expensive though.
You can then only win by atacking with marines.
they are expensive though.
Dynamic Cow
Moo
one word: editor. make paradroppers 13-10-1, and increase drop range to 32, and voala, instant defenders in those cities your modern armor are unwilling to defend 
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
1-tile-islands cities make marines sometimes VERY valuable.
Some situations require paratroopers.
Don't do them as your primary army: they are specific.
Use tanks and armors and mecs like everybody else...
Some situations require paratroopers.
Don't do them as your primary army: they are specific.
Use tanks and armors and mecs like everybody else...
Cunobelin
I aint no hippo
I have never found any use for paratroopers and as for marines i can throw an entire transport of them at an enemy city and get nothing
bobgote
Trousers
Marines are useful. Paratroopers i have found no use for. This came up in another thread, and my suggestion there was to mod paratroopers to 10.4.1. As they can be good for incisive attacks, but when caught in the open by opposition generally can't put up much of a fight.
Wild Weasel
Jak se mas ?
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- Apr 11, 2002
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- 154
The credit for this suggestion belongs to another poster on this site, but I can't remember their name nor the thread I read it in.
Whoever they were, they suggested editting tanks, mech infrantry and modern armour to be 'wheeled', thus preventing them entering unimproved mountain ranges or jungles. I have found this to be an excellent suggestion and creates a definite requirement for the more mobile paras and marines.
Whoever they were, they suggested editting tanks, mech infrantry and modern armour to be 'wheeled', thus preventing them entering unimproved mountain ranges or jungles. I have found this to be an excellent suggestion and creates a definite requirement for the more mobile paras and marines.
bobgote
Trousers
Sounds like all those units are made crap, although it would make paras and marines useful for something.
(EDIT): As to credit to the modding thing. It was a combination of stuff that everyone said, I might've just said higher attack, lower defence, but the point was made there. I can't really remember, but it was on a different thread cos this is the first i've heard of the wheeled idea.
Wild Weasel
Jak se mas ?
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I disagree. I don't like the idea of heavy mechanised units being able to enter arduous terrain without roads. Additionally, it lead to a very satifactory destruction of most of the Roman army in my current game. Caesar wanted uranium - I told him to stick it and he declared war, promptly invading the mountain range just inside my border with a huge number of tanks with mechanised infrantry support, using my specially-constructed trade road with Rome. However, because this range stretched for a number of squares I was able to blow up the road both infront and behind his troops trapping them in the mountains. I have lethal bombardment enabled, so it became the epitomy of turkey shooting. Made me happy, anyway.
I actually saw the AI use marines last night! I had left a major coastal city undefended (I was in Democracy) and when I destroyed their standard invasion force where they landed, they came back and took the city with a marine directly from their transport! 
It didn't stand, of course....
It didn't stand, of course....
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
This prove the useless of the marine, when acting in continents...
Marines rock i tell you, use them with battleshipe and carrier+bomber, bombard any coastal city like hell an then move your marines for amphibious assault. Infantry with 1 hp will loose against a marines, even mech infantry ( expect some loose).
You can wage war while in emocraty this way, because you dont have troop in ennemy territory( war weariness is minimum).
A good invasion force look like that.
1.- 8-10 battleshipe
2.- 4 carrier full of bomber
3.- 1 carrier with 4 jet fighter on air supperiority
4.- 2-3 transport full of marines.
5.- 2-3 transport full of panzer or thanks.
Use bombard a lots, reduce city size below 6 ( no defense bonus), its much better to bombard one more turn then less.
You can wage war while in emocraty this way, because you dont have troop in ennemy territory( war weariness is minimum).
A good invasion force look like that.
1.- 8-10 battleshipe
2.- 4 carrier full of bomber
3.- 1 carrier with 4 jet fighter on air supperiority
4.- 2-3 transport full of marines.
5.- 2-3 transport full of panzer or thanks.
Use bombard a lots, reduce city size below 6 ( no defense bonus), its much better to bombard one more turn then less.
Crow T Robot
Minister of Hedonism
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2002
- Messages
- 171
I disagree that marines are useless, but they and paratroopers ARE specialty units.
If you use battle tactics besides simply massing units on a shared border they can be invaluable. I will often start a war on the border *partly* as a diversion (maybe the secondary objectives are there), then allow a turn or two for their troops to respond. Then attack a coastal city (near a needed resource or to establish a foothold)
with a marine company. Obviously if defended with Mech Inf or even Infantry, it can be dicey; but if defended with Musketmen or less, the city can easily fall, and now you have a foothold way behind their lines or on a new continent.
Follow that invasion up with a transport of Tanks, Infantry for defense and maybe some workers.
Early on, I would use an invasion force of 5 marines, 1 or 2 Tanks/MA and 1 or 2 Inf/MI in a transport depending on the defense (a sub or Explorer helps decide).
Lately though, I load up 1 or 2 transports with marines and 1 or 2 with armour and maybe one more with workers and settlers and cruise up and down the coast cherry picking cities.
Paratroops are a bit less useful (they dont do anything Infantry in a copter couldnt - barring editor mods), BUT you can drop 6-8 of them over enemy lines as a feint, let the enemy respond then launch the real assault elsewhere. Otherwise, you sort of have to be lucky to have an airport close enough to drop them into a fight, near a target or into a city as reinforcements.
If you use battle tactics besides simply massing units on a shared border they can be invaluable. I will often start a war on the border *partly* as a diversion (maybe the secondary objectives are there), then allow a turn or two for their troops to respond. Then attack a coastal city (near a needed resource or to establish a foothold)
with a marine company. Obviously if defended with Mech Inf or even Infantry, it can be dicey; but if defended with Musketmen or less, the city can easily fall, and now you have a foothold way behind their lines or on a new continent.
Follow that invasion up with a transport of Tanks, Infantry for defense and maybe some workers.
Early on, I would use an invasion force of 5 marines, 1 or 2 Tanks/MA and 1 or 2 Inf/MI in a transport depending on the defense (a sub or Explorer helps decide).
Lately though, I load up 1 or 2 transports with marines and 1 or 2 with armour and maybe one more with workers and settlers and cruise up and down the coast cherry picking cities.
Paratroops are a bit less useful (they dont do anything Infantry in a copter couldnt - barring editor mods), BUT you can drop 6-8 of them over enemy lines as a feint, let the enemy respond then launch the real assault elsewhere. Otherwise, you sort of have to be lucky to have an airport close enough to drop them into a fight, near a target or into a city as reinforcements.
Zachriel
Kaiser
Marines are very useful in conjunction with naval or air bombardment. You can capture a coastal city, move in the transports, unload the armor and be ready to move the same turn.
Paratroopers are good for a resource denial strategy, though they often get destroyed before they can accomplish their mission. I think they should be made invisible until they are discovered by the enemy.
Paratroopers are good for a resource denial strategy, though they often get destroyed before they can accomplish their mission. I think they should be made invisible until they are discovered by the enemy.
bobgote
Trousers
Can you define this for me? the discovered bit. eg within one square or something? maybe infantry units can detect them?
THAT would be incredibly cool, I would love to just see a resource denied and then have to hunt down the paratroopers the enemy dropped in!
By invisible, I think you mean invisible within the cultural borders, but visible to any units or if the trooper is within a city radii.
I see two problems with marines and paratroopers.
With marines, their cost outweighs their advantage over infantry. I'd rather make fifteen infantry and land next to a city to attack next turn, than ten marines and attack on the same turn.
Its nice to have a unit that can attack from a ship, but how useful is that when all the infantry needs to do is land in an un-occupied square?
Heres my solution, and I don't think it would be available until Civ4.
Create another type of terrain called Beach. Have the map generator create only mountains and beach on coastal areas. Eliminate the posibility to land any units on a mountain coast square - even if it has a road. Give the defender a distinct advantage when defending from a beach against non-marines. Give them a slight advantage when defending marines.
In other words, all foot-soldiers may attack from a ship, but the Marines get a distinct advantage over, say, infantry or riflemen. Armor and any type of Cavalry, horsemen, chariots, and knights cannot attack from a ship.
Also, I don't think that any unit should be able to attack a city from a ship. I can't think of any time in history where this happened. Maybe someone can refresh my memory.
The benefit to the defender here is that he need not protect every square of coastline since mountains can't be landed on. He will also get an advantage when defending on the beaches.
The benefit of using the marines is that they don't suffer the same penalties when attacking a beach. In fact, perhaps they should get a further advantage when defending a beach from attacks over land.
The second problem that I see is that once these units do what they are presently used for, there is little hope of defending unless using a SOD. Personally I hate SOD's. While they may be realistic to some degree, they provide an advantage to the AI as we would have difficulty moving such a large mass of mixed troops, stopping periodically to regroup after battles to heal, having to press the space bar thirty five times to pass the turn. The AI doesn't have this problem.
Therefore, solution two: Limit stacks to, say, Ten outside of cities, and fifteen within a city. Perhaps there should be a new terrain improvement that workers complete called a base. The base can house maybe Twenty units.
This shouldn't be a problem for the AI as the limit would only force it to split its troops up. Furthermore, maybe only four or five units should be able to fortify within one non-city square.
Using this method, when the paratroopers capture a city or resource or something, the AI cannot simply rail a SOD over there and take out the ten units that you have left after the original battle.
With marines, their cost outweighs their advantage over infantry. I'd rather make fifteen infantry and land next to a city to attack next turn, than ten marines and attack on the same turn.
Its nice to have a unit that can attack from a ship, but how useful is that when all the infantry needs to do is land in an un-occupied square?
Heres my solution, and I don't think it would be available until Civ4.
Create another type of terrain called Beach. Have the map generator create only mountains and beach on coastal areas. Eliminate the posibility to land any units on a mountain coast square - even if it has a road. Give the defender a distinct advantage when defending from a beach against non-marines. Give them a slight advantage when defending marines.
In other words, all foot-soldiers may attack from a ship, but the Marines get a distinct advantage over, say, infantry or riflemen. Armor and any type of Cavalry, horsemen, chariots, and knights cannot attack from a ship.
Also, I don't think that any unit should be able to attack a city from a ship. I can't think of any time in history where this happened. Maybe someone can refresh my memory.
The benefit to the defender here is that he need not protect every square of coastline since mountains can't be landed on. He will also get an advantage when defending on the beaches.
The benefit of using the marines is that they don't suffer the same penalties when attacking a beach. In fact, perhaps they should get a further advantage when defending a beach from attacks over land.
The second problem that I see is that once these units do what they are presently used for, there is little hope of defending unless using a SOD. Personally I hate SOD's. While they may be realistic to some degree, they provide an advantage to the AI as we would have difficulty moving such a large mass of mixed troops, stopping periodically to regroup after battles to heal, having to press the space bar thirty five times to pass the turn. The AI doesn't have this problem.
Therefore, solution two: Limit stacks to, say, Ten outside of cities, and fifteen within a city. Perhaps there should be a new terrain improvement that workers complete called a base. The base can house maybe Twenty units.
This shouldn't be a problem for the AI as the limit would only force it to split its troops up. Furthermore, maybe only four or five units should be able to fortify within one non-city square.
Using this method, when the paratroopers capture a city or resource or something, the AI cannot simply rail a SOD over there and take out the ten units that you have left after the original battle.
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