Marines are making me seasick.......

peter450

Prince
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Sep 24, 2006
Messages
392
Most of the units in civ4 have been done pretty well, they all have there jobs an roles, some changes were made to the upgrade paths in warlords an new ones have been added in for bts which by an large the changes/additions slot in very nicely

Marines & sam infantry used to upgrade to mech inf, everyone complained about this and in warlords they no longer upgraded, this was ok an gave more late game unit variety but had a fundamental flaw in my opinion, an that was the units were designed in the beginning to be made obsolete later, so they were'nt really that good a choice after mech inf became available.

Now BTS fixed one of those problems with the new mobile sam unit, which is worth getting after mech infs as it has some good features in it's own right an the str rating has gone up from a competely uncompetive in the late modern era 18 to a better 22, + extra moves + good intercetion.

Problem is that marines have no real role, post mech inf, late modern era.

Mobile Arty usefull as bombards
Gunships are fast raiders lots of moves + good v tanks
Tanks are the main front line assault units
Mech inf is the main city defender an becuase of def terrain bonus's + a little air intercepter power makes a good stack defender field unit too
Mobile sam offers great Air def and has a useful role in a stack, city thats getting bombed, or when fighters cannot give you anti air cover
Para troops are great at dropping onto strong def terrain an holding postions, or pillaging good tiles resources that are further behind enemy lines (still think that being a unit that is effectively jumping out of a plane, there range should be extended when stealth bombers become available as theres a big differance in range between WW2 bombers an modern era equivalents)
Marines seem to get left behind in this stage, since they offer nothing in the later modern era to justify them not being obsoleted an upgraded into mech inf, which is probably why in vanilla civ 4 they did just that, now i personally would not like to see it go back, i liked having the extra choice in warlords, and BTS has solved the problem of the Sam Infantry not offering the required level of performance by offering a later varient with features an performance that ensures it's has a viable role.

So they could either offer a later marine varient, styled into a more commando type role, the unit does'nt need more more str neccessarily but features an upgrades that keep it competive.

Or they could allow marines to be upgraded with the city raider promo, after robotics is researched, Gunpowered units dont get this upgrade, since this is not really there intended function in the game, and i like the combined arms approach to civ 4 warfare, however by giving marines this upgrade later in the game when modern, armour etc is available you wont upsett that balance, but will give marines a good role as cheaper city raiders, since tanks cost a lot more an have no terrain def bonus's, marines would thus still have a use in the late game, being less expensive and a good jack of all trades unit, not as good as tanks or as strong as mech infs but combining some of each units useful attributes, the city attack bonus's that make tanks good assault units, an the abilty to take advantage of def terrain.
 
Another solution would be to allow them to be promoted to Mobile Infantry, BUT NOT become obsoleted. Since they start with the Amphibious promotion--not an ability duplicating the promotion's effect--upgrading them to MI would effectively create a stronger SeAL that isn't a UU anymore. This, on the downside, would devalue the Navy SeAL... But we could always give America a different UU to compensate...
 
I like the of a special forces unit to which marines and paratrooopers would upgrade , that would have both abillities.
 
yeah to combine the traits of the two units into a modern unit that replaces both, perhaps also comming with the comando upgrade as standard, seems like a sound idea, all the late game units have at least 2 moves, Marines with just 1 move dont cut it, paratroops have there use's in the late modern era as the paradrop is quite useful if your close enough to use it, but it's still a little to niche in usefulness to really figure to much in late modern era warplans, at least in my opinion so yeah i'm up for a modern replacement that combines the best bits of both units
 
That doesn't sound like SEALs, it sounds like a completely differnet unit, unless you'd like to tell me how a SEAL can paradrop... I think it's a fantastic idea guys.
SEAL stands for "Sea, Air, and Land" and do paradrops.

edit: Also, if Mech Inf. takes a -50% on amphibious ops, that makes them 16 attacking from a transport, whereas marines are 24 attacking from transports. That still makes them an awesome unit after you've discovered Mech Inf.
 
The americans could always get a differant UU or have there UU based on the later more modern version of the marine, they'd just need to rename it delta force commando's or something, even the amercan seal UU is uncompetive late modern era, mech inf has 2 moves same promo's except amphibious, an 32 str + minor air intercept abilty, and has access to all the same promo's, it's a no brainer what to build, mech inf does a better job in every scenario bar attacking from the sea, an even then why attack from the sea with 24 str marines against 32 str entrenched defenders?, better to upgrade some mech infs to amphibious, they will do a far better job.

I like the marines there a cool looking unit, i liked the way warlords didn't obsolete them like civ 4 did gave a much nicer spread of late game units, and i liked BTS even better when i found out modern (competive late game) versions of arty an sam infantry had been included, i just wish the marine had got similar treatment, you only have to look at wars in iraq an afghanistan to see that modern marines/special forces are right there in the thick of it playing a important arguably central role
 
SEAL stands for "Sea, Air, and Land" and do paradrops.

edit: Also, if Mech Inf. takes a -50% on amphibious ops, that makes them 16 attacking from a transport, whereas marines are 24 attacking from transports. That still makes them an awesome unit after you've discovered Mech Inf.

Thanks for the clarification there, smart guy, but i was refering to SEALs as they stand in the game Civilization 4, as this forum concerns.
 
Thanks for the clarification there, smart guy, but i was refering to SEALs as they stand in the game Civilization 4, as this forum concerns.
Well, smart guy, I think 87 was pointing out that the American UU would have to change.
 
I'd for the Special forces... make it

2 move to keep up with the other modern units
~28 str to be a viable combat unit
paradrop (maybe up to range 7)
Amphibious and Commando

and available with ?Fiber Optics?Composites? and Advanced Flight

I'd say keep the American UU as is (although it should probably be beefed up, but that's a seperate issue) and make the new unit ... something besides SEALs which is too specific already [some term suggesting sudden attack and/or combined arms] perhaps something as simple as

Special Forces

[the American UU would be good if you could still build it after the Special Forces became available... you could build SEALs with March and upgrade them to special forces]
 
Marines start out with amphibious. That means they can attack from transports without any penalty. That's how they are intended to be used both historically and in game. I don't really see how you say they are left behind as they are serving a purpose that no other unit (without promotions) at that point in the game can do better.

As far as I can tell, marines have a role (amphibious assault) and no unit other than the Navy SEAL can perform it better without using promotions. Always remember to use the right tool for the right job.

Also, I haven't checked, but does the anti-tank unit get its bonuses against mech infantry? If so, then that's another reason to have marines. If not, then that's another thing Firaxis needs to fix. As a former mech infantryman, I can tell you that the biggest concern was an enemy with anti-tank weaponry.
 
When I attack from the sea and take over a city I leave a marine behind with the raised building and take off towards the next coastal. So you see, marines are useful for something late game! They are great cannon fodder and if something from your stack has to be sacraficed, wallah. A marine shouldn't be as powerful as a tank or helpicopter it's just fine. If anything the helicopter should upgrade. ;)
 
I've had some great experiences with marines using them to take enemy coastal cities. It's usually MUCH easier IMO to bombard cities with ships instead of using artillery far inland (providing you have a superior navy), then use bombers to soften the defenders and come in with some highly promoted marines to sweep up. It's all about combined arms really. Why would you want a killer "all-in-one-swiss-army-knife" unit that could attack anything anywhere extremely well?

Using battleship bombardments, bombers, and marine transports (and some tanks and artillery as unfortunate amphibious cannon fodder) I was once able to take Athens from Alexander on the first turn I declared war (provided the city was very close to my continent and it was a classic backstab).
 
You could horsehockycan the Navy Seal and give america the F-15 or F-22 as a new UU
 
Since modern marines, American ones at least usually attack from Assault Carriers in those cool hovercraft. Why not just give them an attack bonus when attacking from water squares? Say +30%.
 
Marines start out with amphibious. That means they can attack from transports without any penalty. That's how they are intended to be used both historically and in game. I don't really see how you say they are left behind as they are serving a purpose that no other unit (without promotions) at that point in the game can do better.

As far as I can tell, marines have a role (amphibious assault) and no unit other than the Navy SEAL can perform it better without using promotions. Always remember to use the right tool for the right job.

Also, I haven't checked, but does the anti-tank unit get its bonuses against mech infantry? If so, then that's another reason to have marines. If not, then that's another thing Firaxis needs to fix. As a former mech infantryman, I can tell you that the biggest concern was an enemy with anti-tank weaponry.

The problem is that job is too limited (like the paratroopers) combine them and you have a potentially useful unit... not good in general combat, but good for several specialized jobs.
 
The problem is that job is too limited (like the paratroopers) combine them and you have a potentially useful unit... not good in general combat, but good for several specialized jobs.

Thank you for your contributions .It's nice to have an idea take off. I thought it would be handy for going behind enemy lines, then attacking across a river to get at an underdefended city or fort porviding air defenses against your advance, or maybe oil or aluminum.
 
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