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[GS] Markets, Shopping Malls and other things

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, May 19, 2019.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Markets and Shopping Malls. Er... what am I meant to do with these? What were FXS thinking?

    Just conceptually I don't like them. The housing districts - aqueduct, neighbourhoods - all has this sort of design feature where they just give housing and don't have an upgrade. The dam district "kinda" does this too - yeah, it upgrades to hydro plant, but that upgrade is just so different and so specific that it feels like a whole other thing - the damn is otherwise just a solid chunk of housing (with a spot of amenity).

    But then you get these two random tier 1 buildings for the neighborhood that do what exactly? Three food does nothing. One amenity seems ... random given the point in the game that one point comes along. And the tourism is very random.

    And then on top of that ... why is the game representing markets or shopping malls anyway? I mean, I get representing a consumer economy. Moving to a consumer and services economy is a big deal - just ask China. Is the shopping Mall meant to represent that? If so, well, it's a bit underwhelming (even more underwhelming than the Stock Exchange representing modern finance / allocation of capital etc with ... er, flat gold per turn?).

    So, questions for the brains trust. Anyone got any idea what FXS was aiming for with these two buildings? Is there some niche or need they're fulfilling that I'm missing. Anyone had any use out of them? Anyone got any suggestions what they should do?

    My guess is that they were just someone's random idea that didn't go anywhere and that FXS just went "eh, whatever. Stick em in. Maybe someone will mod them to do something".

    (To be clear: I'm not all that worried about these buildings. I'm just trying to find a way to kill time until the next patch - after which I will either play Civ non-stop till the third expansion or finally accept that Civ is just not for me - and I'm sick of AI threads. Although. If someone wants to start another "England and or Coastal Cities and or IZs suck" thread, I'll happily get on board. If got some ideas I've only suggested 148 times before, which I'd really like to rehash with bold headings, rhetorical questions and poor proof reading.)

    On the other hand. You know, I quite like the Water Mill. If you have three or more rice or wheat, it's actually a pretty funky little building. It's a bit weird in that it mostly just doubles down on food in cities that are all food and no production, but it does really push tall cities with the right set up. I feel like the Market or Shopping Mall should of worked in a similar way - sort of providing a benefit that scales based on other factors like what resources are in the city.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  2. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    These along with the water park are strictly for flavor, in order to add some life to your city. That being said, they could have picked better names but this appears to be a Firaxis meme and somewhat Americentric.... every major city really does come with a mall.

    I would like a Farmer's Market.
     
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Yeah, flavour is definitely a potential explanation. But they don't actually feel very flavourful to me - they just feel random.

    I think the Water park was genuinely meant to buff Coastal Cities - giving them a district (and so adjacency) without chewing up land tiles. It's been a massive fail though. I think Entertainment and WaterPark districts would work much better if they didn't use district slots.
     
  4. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    It does have that fillerish feel to it but maybe they coukd expand on it like what happens with power plants
     
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  5. Bradypus

    Bradypus Chieftain

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    I occasionally build EC/WP districts when I can place them strategically to reach a lot of my cities. To that end I have found the Water Park to often be superior. It reaches farther, provides science on fish and more and can be placed on otherwise useless tiles. The EC Zoo, on the other hand, only provides bonuses to useless tiles like Rainforest and Marsh. There are maps in which amenities are hardfought.

    That being said, I wouldn't mind if these districts didn't take up a district slot.
     
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  6. Ivan Hunger

    Ivan Hunger Chieftain

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    The food market exists to let you get slightly more utility out of a city that you otherwise only founded to build the Amundsen-Scott Research Station.
     
  7. Tyroq

    Tyroq Chieftain

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    They work even better inland with a centrally located lake town. And as @Bradypus said, the water park does often do more for my amenities than the ec. However, the ec is needed for the Colosseum, sooo that gives it more solid value, particularly in the early game.

    Most of the time I don't struggle with happiness, so that shopping mall is kinda optional/useless. Honestly, most of the time if I'm gonna build one of those it's in a game where I'm doing a lot of conquering and need to keep up with growing amenity demand because I have a rapid influx of new cities, some with high populations. However, if I'm doing that much conquering, due to the way Grievances still kinda break diplomacy, I'm not likely to be able to be friends with anyone for long, so it's gonna snowball into a domination game. And chances are it's not gonna last long enough for those shopping malls to become available anyway. *sigh*

    Speaking of grievances, even leaders with the Darwinist agenda still get mad at you over "grievances against others." Just one question... why? Seriously, if anyone would be a little bit understanding about the nature of conflict, you'd think they would care a lot less what others think of you. But nope. I almost lost an alliance with Amanitore in my Korea game because I wiped out Shaka, even though she was a Darwinist and didn't give a flying flip the entire duration of the war against him. Then I took his last city and suddenly -40!! *sigh* so dumb
     
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  8. Kwami

    Kwami Warlord

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    Eh, +4 Tourism isn't nothing. If you've got 10 cities, then that's 40 Tourism per turn. You can buy Shopping Malls with Gold, too!
     
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  9. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Warlord

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    I think they were meant to go somewhere else during development; the game ended up going in a different direction, and while these buildings weren't part of that any more there also wasn't reason to take them out.
     
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  10. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

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    +1 amenity from malls is OK...
    I have no idea why anyone would ever build a food market.
    I would buff it a bit to, for example +1 food +1 gold for every farm, pasture or plantation improvement and +1 additional food and gold for each resource adjacent that is improved by the above.
    Then maybe I might build them.
     
  11. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan Chieftain

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    Here's my take on it, but what do I know...

    As for the food markets and shopping malls, the devs thought, "hey, the specialty districts (that take up precious district slots and tiles) can be improved by adding buildings within them. Why not have the non-specialty districts do the same?" :wow: And I think this was a good idea but poorly implemented. Such a good idea that I'm sure in an upcoming patch we'll see buildings for aqueducts. But the implementation is questionable - for shopping malls, you want as much tourism as possible for culture wins so making them in all your NHs is a decent way to supplement your output, but clearly not as good as the conventional tourism tricks. And for games where you need to min/max your amenities (mostly dom games or competitive space games), it's another avenue for a little more - again, not as effective as the conventional amenity sources, but a little supplement to help. The food market I see no reason for - an extra 3 food at a stage where food is so plentiful and accessible is unnecessary - maybe if they went in a direction where the other alternative from shopping malls added more housing and/or gold (maybe faith), I could see a choice there. Ultimately, one of the keys to the success of the series has been the replay-ability of the games, and adding aspects like these that are situationally a good supplement to your agenda is a good idea - in some games, they provide a little boost towards what you really need in that particular case to be useful, and in other situations they are next to meaningless, and this is good for its purpose.

    And as for the tangential responses regarding water parks and its buildings, I have mixed feelings about this. For the meta-game, aggressive play (and particularly early aggressive play) gets you in a better winning position than peaceful play. The major drawback to aggressive play is an increased dependency on amenities coupled with decreased access to them. There are sooooo many ways to increase the amount of amenities that your civilization has, but ultimately they are FINITE, and this fact comes into play in very aggressive games. Building WPs in select cities for coverage of all your cities in conjunction with the coverage options afforded by ECs has an effect of increasing the total amount of amenities that all your cities can have as a base by a considerable amount - and this plays strongly into my playstyle - early aggression and later passiveness, except when the situation allows for late game aggression with lessened diplomatic consequence, puts you into a winning position with the tradeoff of having to figure out how you're going to deal with amenities. The WP's addition makes this easier, but is this a good thing? That's your opinion - expansion in this game (more than its predecessors) is very potent for bringing you into a better winning position, and peaceful expansion is much, much more costly than aggressive expansion. The equalizing factor is that aggressive expansion leads to amenity problems. So by adding the WP and its buildings removes a great deal of the problems that one incurs by taking the route which puts you in the best winning position. This makes aggressive play simply a better choice than passive/diplomatic play, but is this a good thing?
     
  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Food Markets and Shopping Malls

    These would have worked better as City Centre buildings that buffed Cities based on how many Neighborhoods (or just Districts) you have.

    Why? Well, because (1) God knows the City Centere needs some more buildings, (2) it would have kept consistent the design of "housing" districts not having buildings, (3) the Food Market and Shopping Mall could have provided a mechanic for making having multiple Neighborhoods useful.

    But absent a complete rework, I'd suggested keeping them as is, but Food Markets and Shopping Malls grant respectively +1 food or +1 gold to each Trade Route originating in this City.

    Entertainment Complex and Waterpark

    These are really interesting districts with interesting buildings, particularly now you can run Bread & Circuses.

    They are easily the most interesting infrastructure that I never build.

    There is already an opportunity cost building these rather than something else (units, projects). They'd be hard to justify if they didn't require a district slot - but they are impossible to justify with the slot requirement.

    EC and WP should require a district slot. There should also maybe be a card or government that gets a bonus for building these.

    Other

    I know FXS are trying, but there are just too many mechanics like Food Markets, Malls, EC, WP that are just ... undercooked. Indeed, you can add to that list Coastal Cities, Colonial Cities, Government Plaza and GP Buildings, IZ and IZ buildings, Tier 3 Buildings, Happiness, etc.

    I'd really like to play with these and other mechanics, but they way they're implemented they're not just sub-optimal, they are genuinely terrible.
     
  13. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    From a design perspective, I think part of the reason we get underwhelming options like the Food Market, and to a lesser degree the Shopping Mall, is that there isn't a clear structure for what buildings should do. Compare say to the rigor by which the cost of buildings is set by their place on the tech/civic system, which provides structure to the overall game design.

    I'm beating a dead horse here, but I think you'd get better design consistency if districts and their buildings followed this or a similar approach:
    • Districts: generate no yield, but create a space for a specialist to generate yields equal to the adjacency bonus plus 1 great person point per turn
    • Tier 1 buildings: improve the productivity of workers by adding flat yields or other bonuses to particular resources / terrain features or specialists, i.e. +1 food per camp or +1 gold per specialist
    • Tier 2 buildings: provide population-based bonuses, i.e. +1 for every X citizens in the city
    • Tier 3 buildings: provide % increase bonuses, either on a regional scale or to that particular city, i.e. +X% boost to YIELD
    Even the amenity districts could follow this approach. The yield from the specialist working the district could be 1 amenity per adjacency bonus, with stricter rules on what gives the district adjacency rules. The Tier 1 buildings could provide amenities to special features, such as reefs or wonders. The Tier 2 buildings add an amenity for every X people in the city. The Tier 3 buildings provide X% more amenities than the city is already producing.
     
  14. BackseatTyrant

    BackseatTyrant Queer Anarchotranshumanist

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    I think a possible reason neighbourhoods don't have tier buildings, is because they arrive so late into the game. By the time you're plopping them down, the intent seems to be that you as a player should steer away from general bonuses and start focusing on the stuff that'll lead you toward one of the victory conditions. Notice how the stuff you unlock in the modern era and forward, focuses less on district boosts, and more on projects, rock bands, nukes, GDRs and most importantly, VCs.
     
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  15. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

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    To me, these were good ideas to have something that you can use to "upgrade" your neighbourhoods. Also have multiple competing buildings gives another reason to be able to get multiple neighbourhoods. However, as mentioned, the cost for what you get in return is just so unbalanced with the buildings that it hardly ever makes sense to build them. But that's a problem for basically all T3 buildings, which is where these fall, cost-wise.
     
  16. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I like these ideas.

    Personally, I'd simplify it a little.

    District. I'd leave Districts as they are but remove the Great People. Instead, you'd only get Great People from Buildings (+ Projefts and Policy Cards). Not having GP tied to Districts would be a slight Nerf to district spam.

    Tier 1 and 2 Buildings. I'd leave these mostly as is. Maybe nerf Library and University. I'd like the Lighthouse to give either extra housing or production to fishing boats, or even just +1 cogs, in addition to it other bonuses. I think the Workshop is a good candidate for a Tier 1 building that buffs resources.

    Tier 3. These should get a percentage bonus (maybe linked to having Tier 3 and 4 Governments). There should also be more and more powerful Policy Cards that boost Tier 3 buildings.

    Specialists. I don't think these can be buffed too much, because the game just isn't designed around Specialists. Personally, I'd just give Tier 3 buildings two Specialist Slots instead of one. If they really need to be buffed, I'd tie the buff to Governments or Policy Cards.

    I could believe that. Food Market and Shopping Mall just feel so... Random.
     
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  17. Zenstrive

    Zenstrive Ocean King

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    You all thinking to buff tier 3 buildings forget that city states exist...
    by the time we got the tier 3 buildings we may have slot 6 envoys on all free city states, reaping plenty of bonuses already (more if you're suzerain for certain city states)
     
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  18. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Warlord

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    Honestly I think the root of the problem is that every takes so damn long to build in civ 6 that there's it's usually not worth it to make things like shopping malls
     
  19. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    I do like the existence of shopping malls, food markets, and neighborhoods, but what you get is a tad underwhelming. Part of my problem is the existence of the absolutely stupid partisan mission, which should be far more restrictive (example, to cities founded by another player and conquered, or to unhappy/disloyal cities), and makes neighborhoods something I'm not a fan of if I have to have my spies play police (which are also very expensive). That being said, the amenity and the tourism from the mall are far more useful than the food market. I think the food market should either have it's flat bonus increased, or make it a percentage modifier to make it actually worthwhile.
     
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  20. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Tweaked the title.

    Just thinking about this some more - with the exception of the Monument, Grainary and maybe (maybe) Watermill, the other sort of "City Infrastructure" buildings and thinga really aren't much fun and arent useful.

    Sewers in particular feel .. pointless. As do Neighborhoods generally (albeit at least Neighborhoods potentially provide some district adjacencies and work with any policies / abilities that buff districts generally).

    I'd thought the problem with these various infrastructure was just that all the infrastructure largely focuses on housing and that high pop (and therefore housing) just isn't that important.

    But thinking about it some more, I don't think that's really it. I think the more fundamental problems are that (1) they focus on housing but there are better ways to get housing and (2) they just don't do anything else, and certainly nothing which opens up new strategies or synergies.

    I mean, Aqueducts and Dams really just give housing ... but they are kinda fun to build because they're designed with more quirks and intricacies.

    But that said, I'm not really sure "what" Neighborhoods or Sewers etc should do?

    I think it's a bit of a pity Food Markets and Shopping Malls weren't City Centre buildings and maybe these and Sewers could have interacted with Neighborhoods and maybe other districts in some way. But I don't have a clear idea how that would have worked.

    Or maybe Sewers and Food Markets and Shopping Malls etc should have been required for some Tier 3 buildings or multiple districts.

    It just feels weird to me there's no incentive to build sewers (for example).

    Where have these elements gone wrong? Is it just that high pop doesn't matter so housing doesn't matter? Is there some niche or synergy these elements should have been designed around?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
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