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[GS] Markets, Shopping Malls and other things

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, May 19, 2019.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    580 production for 4 tourism and 1 amenity is weird. Who goes to another country to use shopping malls? The 1 amenity works but is seems so little. 1 builder charge will give me better tourism than this.

    465 for a food market... +3 food... great! Happy with the food, I really think cities should be getting bigger in the modern age but 465 production for this?

    And why can we not have both? Every city I go into has both IRL!

    An average modernist city created 30-40 prod per turn. I would like to see each of these being 200 production maximum. +3 food for the food market, and +1 amenity +1 housing for the shopping mall and throw in a police station at 200 prod for another +1 amenity. So in 15 turns you have modernised your city. Each should use 1 power each with the police station getting priority.

    A neighbourhood has many disadvantages and does not get CS adjustments so they should try and encourage it with such things.
    The values I do not care about and may be wrong but encouraging more big cities and use of neighbourhoods should be a priority... do they need to call buildings Tier1 and tier2?
     
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  2. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Pretty much everyone that goes on holidays to Singapore.

    Agree with all these suggestions / observations.

    (Also, for what it's worth, the absence of Courts, Police Stations etc is another thing which suggests to me we will likely get a Third XP.)
     
  3. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    It is probably an alternative tourism and amenity source if you've placed neighbourhoods in breathtaking tiles instead of national parks.
     
  4. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

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    Yeah, the crux of the matter is that high pop doesn't really help, and there are actually a ton of sources of housing. For example, I started a game recently where my second city is away from freshwater, thinking that I could actually build an aqueduct. But I haven't, because I can actually get housing from other sources. Right now, I'm getting 2 (granary) + 2 (plantations/farms) + 1 (barracks) plus sometimes an extra 1 from policy cards (Classical Republic for part of it). So I'm pre-industrial and am already growing it through size 6. I still have a handful more farm spots to give it another couple, plus can still get more housing from encampment/university/etc... And this is not even going for the other bonuses like Monarchy's housing from walls, or the other policy cards that give housing bonuses. So basically, the more I look at it, the less I really need to build an aqueduct.

    And even with that, a city with no freshwater shouldn't be able to grow that large. And on the flipside, there actually needs to be a good reason to grow that large. At the moment, if I grew it any bigger, it would just cause my empire to become unhappy. So I really have no incentive to grow.

    Probably what needs to work is that some of those late-game housing like sewers and neighbourhoods should not provide flat bonuses, but instead give bonuses to let you grow larger. For example, if a sewer made it so that it took 4 pop per amenity in the city, or let you grow 2 population points per point of housing, those would be changes that actually let you grow large cities with a bonus. Or if neighbourhoods did that for specialists, for example, you can set it up in such a way that by building those in a city, it can really leapfrog and grow very large without having to worry about the negative effects on your empire.
     
  5. Eurritz

    Eurritz Chieftain

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    The one thing that bothers me about neighborhood constructions is that i can only put one of them per city even if i have more than one neighborhood.
     
  6. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    Americans.

    Seriously, two friends and I were in Vienna (I had been once before)during a study abroad, one of them was Iranian and the other an American girl who had never left the country.

    The Iranian girl and I spent all morning/day exploring Vienna and having a blast. The other girl woke up late and went to the mall.

    *facepalms*
     
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  7. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    I think to make the housing improvements worth more, housing shouldn’t come from as many improvements as it does. That would make neighborhoods and sewers not just useful, but a necessity.

    I don’t have a problem with sewers (i will build them when i need housing before neighborhoods, or buy them because they arent expensive, nor do they take up a tile), but +2 housing can be pretty insignificant if you have a city that grows very quickly. I’ll also build them when I’m out of other options XD maybe double the housing benefit, and even give an amenity i mean sanitation was a HUGE deal! Clean water and toilets ARE an amenity.

    Food Markets are just so cost inefficient, I agree. +3 food after the production cost of both that and the neighborhood is a joke. If I’m desperate for food in a city and it has a neighborhood sure I’ll build it but it’s rare. I’d rather take the amenity and tourism from a mall (which really should also give a bit of gold, and a food market could too, taxes!!) neighborhoods and their buildings need a rework, and honestly some more choices of what to build there.

    Water Mills are not bad, I usually build them but aren’t high priority. That goes to granary and monument, and walls in vulnerable cities. Also, where’s my hospital building? Where is the medicine tech in general?!!
     
  8. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I really like the housing mechanic and generally like how it's implemented. It ties together lots of disperate mechanics in interesting ways - access to water, importance of farming, tile improvements generally, governments and policies. I also really like how housing covers lots of concepts in a fairly abstract way - eg food, health, infrastructure.

    But at the same time, something about how housing works makes it a dead letter in terms of mechanics. It's definitely not just population not being important enough - although that's definitely part of it.

    I still think a big improvement would be being able to have multiple of the same governors - so you could say have more than one Pingala city. That would require some broader / more general rebalancing, but at least then you'd have some benefit from multiple big cities (because basically only governors give you yield per pop). Even then though, I think some housing mechanics like Sewers or Monarchy's housing bonus would need another look to ensure they're actually fun.

    Also, the negatives for your housing cap should only kick in once you reach the cap - not before. Having growth penalties kick in before you reach your housing cap in unintuitive and often confusing.
     
  9. Hammurabbit

    Hammurabbit Chieftain

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    When spaceports were affected by the district population limit, I remember housing being an issue in some high production cities where I wanted a spaceport. I think if industrial zones and entertainment districts were more critical, housing would be more important (due to district pop limit) and the housing related infrastructure would need to be thoughtfully planned.
     
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  10. Kwami

    Kwami Warlord

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    Let's not generalize the entire population because of one girl that you knew, eh?
     
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  11. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    I don't think these concepts are US-centric. Closed roof markets are an old european concept and such structures probably predate US supermarkets (I think they are called 'market halls' in english, but might be wrong).

    One in Budapest:


    The water park on the other hand probably is a US phenomenon, but then again Theater squares are I think again more common in Europe so there is probably western bias... I wouldn't worry about it too much, though.
     
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  12. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    I am American.

    And there were definitely others, just an anecdote.
     
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  13. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Warlord

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    Oh good, then you know we're all cowoboy-surfer-moviestars. ;)
     
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  14. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    I do. I myself am one! As are you. I’m the cowboyest though as I live in Texas. :p
     
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  15. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    That's a good point. The mathematical concept behind the growth decline is fine, but the way it's implemented makes it more difficult than necessary for a new player to pick up and understand what's going on.
     
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  16. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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  17. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    The big issue I see with the way it is now (growth penalty before you hit the housing limit) is players get stuck with -50% growth but don't get the visual indicator to build more housing. Boo! No one wants to play whack-a-mole housing developer without any handy red icons blaring at you.
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    “Whack a mole housing developer” what a perfect description.
    Turning it off would be handy, a small seaside town with a harbour that is never going to grow much leaves me whacking a broken mole.
     
  19. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    I played more like China's one-child policy. No growth for you! Blaring red icons would have been a signal of success.
     
  20. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS Chieftain

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    My problem with those two buildings is their expense. They're WAY too expensive and provide little benefit for that cost.

    That's a problem on top of another problem -- I almost never build neighborhoods. The benefits of having a very large city are negligible considering that by size ten, you're probably working all the good tiles anyways. Also, specialists suck so even when you throw your extra citizens into specialist roles, who cares? If I have to allocate one housing and one amenity to get +3 gold ... no thanks. I'd rather save the amenity and allocate it elsewhere if possible.

    The only exception I make to above is when a city has a lot of amenities that can't be moved (IE- most of them). The city with the Colosseum is a pretty good example since that's +4 amenities that can't be put elsewhere. If that city now makes a national park and a zoo in the mid-late game, it now has +7 that it can't move. A 7 amenity city can support 15 citizens. It's fairly difficult to get up to 15 housing just from farms and a granary, especially if you want to mine all your hills (you do). So, a neighborhood can sometimes make sense (although I'd probably build units instead -- opportunity costs and whatnot).

    Since those amenities can't be shuffled around, you might as well you them. A neighborhood can make that happen.
     

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