Maroons [Suggestion]

ProctorSilex

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I haven't seen a thread about this, though I'm sure some modders already have ideas on the topic.
A caveat: I've only played the last public release 3.0.1, and even then I may have missed some features. I write from what I've experienced in the half dozen or so games I've played of WTP.

The way that natives and slaves are treated in this game bugs me. I may start another thread about natives, but my contention for slaves is that the mod needs meaningful slave revolts and for the revolting slaves to not just stand around waiting to be recaptured. I've seen that @raystuttgart has implemented slaves, the children of slaves (ethnically correct populations), and slave hunters & slave masters in the mod. I haven't played the latest release yet, but I think they're good additions -- and I agree that not including them is a disservice to historical truth (i.e. whitewashing). However, I also think that slavery could be addressed much more meaningfully in this mod -- because as it stands, slaves are basically the same as cattle.

I don't find the most thematic thing to have 30 events related to resources, when all of them are essentially get X, win Y. I really like board-games, and I find the theme-approach on some mods (and this does apply here) sometimes the same than the one found on euro-games. It's just a thing pasted over the mechanics, were you could easily swap names/graphics and things would work the same. And it's fine, I know what I play when I play an euro-game.... but then I don't like when someone tells me such game is so thematic when it clearly is not ;)

The same for the slavery events lately added, which essentially are get free slaves. Why? There is zero story about it. Zero moral implications. Zero theme. They could be ships, cows, chairs or gold, I could not care less.

AND THIS IS ACTUALLY pretty anti-thematic. They are people, slaves are humans. Not objects. Not gold. Not ships. But the theme is set in a way I could not care less about getting 5 slaves or 1000 gold, because there is no difference. And here come the "economic sims" vision, slaves currently are just objects. There is no theme attached to it, a real story, real events, decisions, or a moral choice. Player has no choice over it, the entire game incentivizes slaves as a strategy, since the only focus is economics. It's just a math problem to solve. And please don't point me to the "revolt" feature. It's just a countermeasure for the economic sim, there is still zero theme around it. And this is clearly shown in other related-features like the "slave hunter promotions".

In a sense, this might correspond to how contemporary colonial authorities saw slaves, as a resource or as a machine... but I think there are potential game concepts out there that would be both more nuanced and more fun. Concepts which should attempt to convey some of the real horror of transporting enslaved people across the sea for hard labor -- and the consequent furor of those people's attempts to free themselves.

My main gripe is that escaped slaves mill about at the periphery of your territory waiting to be recaptured. Whereas historically, escaped slaves made for the hills, forests and marshes to start hidden communities away from colonial authority: they were really escaping. Examples abound -- see the Jamaican maroon communities in the rugged "cockpit country" of that island, Brazilian palenques, hidden slave homesteads in the Great Dismal Swamp in North Carolina/Virginia, the six politically distinct Maroon communities in Guiana, among numerous others. Oftentimes these communities, which resisted capture by colonial authorities, became autonomous agents in the shifting terrain of colonial politics. For example, the Jamaican maroons, when the island was under Spanish rule, worked with the British to expel the Spanish -- and then defended themselves against the British when they took over. Maroon communities have also had their own complex political and economic relationships with indigenous groups.
Sometimes runaway slaves would be adopted into indigenous communities. In many cases they would adopt the local communities' customs, and sometimes hybrid Afro-Indigenous cultures arose. See the Black Seminoles or the Garifuna, though there must be numerous examples unrecorded by history. In other cases, native groups might be under pressure from European colonists to return fleeing slaves. There's an opportunity here for deeper gameplay with natives, too.

Another gripe is that even (armed!) revolting slaves sit by placidly until the player sends a unit to dispatch them. Even then, they're not much of a threat -- at most, an annoyance. Whereas slave revolts were huge, economic and existential threats to the colonial order. Haiti is a perfect example -- it is still being punished to this day for having dared to claim its liberty from the French slave masters.

So, with all that background, here are some ideas for game concepts. I have no modding experience, but I'll try list then in order of (as I understand it) difficulty of implementation.
  1. Escaped slaves should at least try to make their way to native settlements. When they arrive, they could either join the natives, at which point the natives would either send them back, giving the player a relationship bonus, or adopt them into their community. This would give the player more of an incentive to capture escaped slaves before they're gone -- and it would feel like slaves are really escaping.
  2. Slave revolts should be bigger and badder, depending on number of player cities, number of slaves, health, happiness, etc. This would tie in with parts of the latest update such as Crime and Law. Revolting slaves should be tougher, with a bonus in rough terrain and marshes. They could try to form a stack, and once they reach a certain number they might actively try to free other slaves and attack the player's infrastructure. À la Underground Railroad.
  3. Abolitionism: story events which lead to all slaves becoming freed slaves, and the player being unable to buy new slaves from Africa. This could be pushed by the king, giving a relationship bonus if the colonies agree. (Aside from England outlawing slavery early in the 1800s, there's not really a historical precedent for this, but there's no reason it couldn't have happened -- see David Graeber & David Wengrow's The Dawn of Everything, wherein the authors suggest that the intellectual between French Jesuits and Wendat statesmen sparked the Enlightenment.) If the player abolished slavery, then declaring war on other colonies could cause their slaves to rise up too. I think there is an element of storytelling that could be explored in this mod with events other than economic rewards, into which this kind of abolitionism concept could fit.
  4. When slaves escape, they could take some tools, sailcloth etc. with them and become settlers. Or a new profession, Maroon. Maroons would try to found a quilombo, or maroon settlement, in rough terrain some ways away from the player. This would probably entail making a new Maroons civ, which I understand takes a ton of work. However, this would open the door for diplomacy with the Maroon faction, who could be allied with against other players etc. Assuming an increasing number of maroon settlements over the course of the game, this would also be thematically resonant. The Maroons could either be a native-type (Seminole, Garifuna, Gullah-Geechee) or a colony-type (think Haiti, Quilombo of Palmares) civ. Or, they could be multiple civs, one corresponding to each colonial power... but that's probably overkill :^) This idea I think has some meat to it.
Again, I don't have any modding experience -- though I'm motivated to learn if people find this concept promising -- I'm just throwing ideas at the wall here. Furthermore, I'll reiterate that I haven't played 4.0 and it's possible there are features in it that will change my perception. However, the idea of a Maroons civ feels exciting, thematically consistent, and fun.
 
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Although this sounds like an enormous effort to implement and will surely not be in the mod before 5.0, I like the idea of more representation of actors other than the invading Europeans. Adding e.g. the Palmares to the game as a faction would be more than just an addition to gameplay but would amount to something like (subaltern) historical storytelling.

Some of you might have followed recent online discussions regarding the representation of slavery in video games, see e.g. Rock Paper Shotgun: How historical games integrate or ignore slavery or Yassine Meskhout - Slavery In Video Games, also quite a few forum threads in the Victoria III forums.
Reworking slavery in Civ4Col (maybe it should be started as a submod?) could be be some real addition to this discussion, especially due to the fact that this game is maybe THE game focusing around the time period as well as the economical implications of slavery - we could start by trying to spotlight the social and human implications as well.
Note that from a gameplay perspective, it is probably difficult to 1) make slavery actually a decision with pros and cons from an economical perspective and at the same time 2) make the player realise the "horrific crime against humanity" it actually was. Because if I can just easily play without slaves (what I usually do in my playthroughs because it is just annoying to always catch them and reorganise city production while they are missing), it is easy to just escape and ignore the topic.
 
Thread made me continue reading a bit more and I'd just like to share what I found by some quick reading:
The Atlantic - The Board Games That Ask You to Reenact Colonialism

Oh, and this article here (from 2012!) seems to have summarized some earlier discussions in Civ4Col modding (TAC and RAR are explicitly mentioned ...):
playthepast - Playing at Slavery: Modding Colonization for Authenticity
(Also, it seems like something similar to what @ProctorSilex suggests above had been started years ago but was never really finished - although I think parts of it are now implemented in WTP)
 
this sounds like an enormous effort to implement and will surely not be in the mod before 5.0.

@jooe is right. Though I agree generally, for me it's something to think about after the new release has a chance to get established.

It was pointed out to me early on is that gameplay comes first. A Youtube video: “Mark Rosewater, 20 Lessons” was recommended. Here's the url:
. It's an hour long so I might start with Lesson 13: “Make the fun part the correct strategy to win”.

TAC had powerful Native fighters. More often than not colonies got wiped out quickly. It's hard to find the right balance.

Once you do find that, then you need a programmer on your side who's eager to put in the time because the strength of “We the People” is that in practice as well as in theory nobody is the boss. Once someone demonstrates competence in producing a useful game feature, there's a lot of freedom; but that competence will be tested and challenged, sometimes angrily. It helps to have a thick skin. I suspect you already know that.

I just read the Atlantic article about board games. I also read “The Dawn of Everything” recently. I liked it a lot. The best book I know on the consequences of slavery is “Caste”.

As I said at the beginning, I agree. You're absolutely right about Haiti. At least one competent programmer likes your idea, which is not the same thing as being willing to work on it, but it's a start

This isn't the right moment for a big new idea. You've got people thinking. Give it time.
 
I think there are a lot of good ideas and proposals for additions, ProctorSilex. New in WTP 4.0 is already that escaping slaves - besides being on the run as was also the case in previous versions - that they are armed and actively attacking units.
Focus should first be on launching 4.0, but there certainly is potential for expanding this in a future version.
 
I may be repeating myself a bit, but in modding there is one simple truth:
Ideas are worth very little without a modder motivated to invest his own effort ... :dunno:

So once somebody steps up and says that he is really motivated to invest his own effort, I will happily join discussion and maybe even support. :thumbsup:
But until that happens it is just a few more ideas that will probably never be implemented in an endless ocean of unimplemented other ideas ...

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I will still give some short feedback. :coffee:
Escaped slaves should at least try to make their way to native settlements.
One weekend of modding effort easily ... not worth it for me without adding actual additional gameplay. :dunno:
Because what should that Slave do once he arrives in that settlement? Sit there stupidly and wait?
Slave revolts should be bigger and badder, ...
May sound fun at first but would most likely be really annoying for most of our players. Also it would be a bit unimmersive. :dunno:
Definitely nothing I would implement. "Catastrophe Events" may sound fun for some but are horrible for gameplay for most.
Abolitionism: story events which lead to all slaves becoming freed slaves, and the player being unable to buy new slaves from Africa.
Simply did not happen in the time frame the mod plays. This was a thing much much later than WOI.
Also I really don't think it would be fun to the player to have story events that simply kills a complete gameplay feature chain.
When slaves escape, they could take some tools, sailcloth etc. with them and become settlers.
To do what? There is no such thing as a real barbarian Civ currently. "Wild Animals" Civ can do almost nothing as it has almost no game mechanics at all.
Once we implement a real "Pirate Civ" (which may easily be 100+ hours of effort) we may let Slaves become a part of that Civ though.

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Maroons would try to found a quilombo, or maroon settlement, in rough terrain some ways away from the player ...
To implement an "Escaped Slave Civ" that would really add interesting gameplay for the player would easily take 100+ hours of effort of a skilled modder.
It would probably be a similar amout of effort as to create the Pirate Civ I am still planning to implement some day. (For which I also have enough gameplay to justify the effort.)
... though I'm motivated to learn if people find this concept promising ...
Yeah sure, it could turn out interesting if somebody would work on it. :thumbsup:
(Still there are like 2+ years of effort for other features on my personal todo list that I care about much more.)

So if that sounds interesting enough for you to invest effort of your own then give it a try.
Once somebody starts investing his own effort other modders may get interested and start to help.

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Everything is simply a matter of motivated people getting to work ... or not.
 
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Thanks all for your feedback. And thanks @Kendon for the book recommendation :)

Focus should first be on launching 4.0
it's something to think about after the new release
By all means, I don't want to divert any effort from the new release. For now, I'll use this thread to collect ideas on the topic. It seems like there is enough interest in the ideas, even if I haven't worked out gameplay concepts as of yet.

To get the ball rolling, I will start compiling research and work on writing in-game texts & events. Then perhaps we'll start sketching out a draft of something more ambitious after the release of 4.0 :cool:

To respond to some feedback:

Re: escaped slaves --
they are armed and actively attacking units.
Support this change. I look forward to playing the new release. If this new feature is fun, it would be something to build upon.
not worth it for me without adding actual additional gameplay. :dunno:
Because what should that Slave do once he arrives in that settlement? Sit there stupidly and wait?
This is another thing I take issue with ;) Unless natives get some more gameplay, I fear that you're right.
However, at least for the sake of immersion, I could imagine a new unit, something along the lines of a "black native", which would act like other native units. We already have native & African slaves, converted natives, and now mestizos and mulattos... i.e. ethnic diversity representative of social dynamics/racial categories of the era. Why not add another, the Black Native -- (or, for that matter, the children of Africans and Indians, who were referred to as "zambos" in Spanish... although this term is pretty derogatory today, at least in English). If only for the sake of flavor, we could have African slaves, or even European criminals/indentured servants, who escape colonial authority and join native societies. Like the reverse of Converted Natives. We know that this wasn't necessarily a rare occurence. I could do the art if someone pointed me towards a resource on learning how to do it.

Re: bigger & badder slave revolts --
May sound fun at first but would most likely be really annoying for most of our players. Also it would be a bit unimmersive. :dunno:
TAC had powerful Native fighters. More often than not colonies got wiped out quickly. It's hard to find the right balance.
I take your point about balancing & keeping the game fun. Clearly the slavery system in WTP is imagined as a gamble between cheap production of first-order resources and armed rebellion. Seeing as the mod now has slave masters and slave hunters, I figure that balances with making slave revolts tougher -- but I'm just speculating; it would have to be tested :dunno: I will think more about this.
I'm curious why you think it would be unimmersive. As long as the size of the revolts scaled with the number of slaves in the colonies I would find it more immersive.

Re: abolitionism --
Simply did not happen in the time frame the mod plays. This was a thing much much later than WOI.
Also I really don't think it would be fun to the player to have story events that simply kills a complete gameplay feature chain.
:agree: Frankly this was a bit of a throwaway idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Finally, as regards a Maroons civ:
To implement an "Escaped Slave Civ" that would really add interesting gameplay for the player would easily take 100+ hours of effort of a skilled modder.
It would probably be a similar amout of effort as to create the Pirate Civ I am still planning to implement some day. (For which I also have enough gameplay to justify the effort.)
This is the real heart -- and the most exciting part, I think -- of the proposal, though I understand that it's quite a difficult thing to accomplish. (Though if someone could explain, or point me to a thread where it is explained, what makes it so difficult that would be edifying.) I take your point about adding gameplay elements ;)

Therefore, I will use this thread to collect ideas for gameplay elements we'd like to see added/changed, discuss those which need to be clarified and maybe also approximate the effort to implement them (easy: little changes to mechanics done in XML only, medium: some programming or new artwork required, difficult: things like adding a whole new civ). I will also start compiling my own research here, and I invite others to do the same.
 
I understand that it's quite a difficult thing to accomplish ...
It just needs many different skills, like also programming and graphical modding, which only few people here in the forum have.
Otherwise it is not necessary difficult if you are experienced enough ... it is just a lot of effort combined and it really needs a programmer for it.

... what makes it so difficult that would be edifying ...

1. A lot of existing code e.g. in Python and DLL would need to be made compatible to it. (Otherwise you would have CTDs)
2. A lot of game mechanics would need to be implemented (in DLL, XML, Python) to make it interesting and worthwile.
3. A lot of XML configuration would need to be implemented for the new Units, Buildings, Civs, Leaders, Traits, Texts, ...
4. GameFonts would need to be adjusted, buttons created, leaderheads created, Units created, Promotions created ...
5. Maybe you even want to add new DLL Diplo-Events or something like that (about 10 hours of effort each).
6. Existing Maps will need to be adjusted so they will also allow to have the new Civ without bugs
7. New AI logic for the new Units and new Civ (which is probably the most challenging part)
8. ...

Trust me, you will easily end up with 100+ hours of effort.
(Even more depending on how much gameplay you want.)

Something like a "real Barbarian Civ" currently simply does not exist in the game.
Even "Wild Animals" we had to add to Civ4Col from scratch, but it really has very few mechanics attached.
Thus there is also no appropriate game logic for anything else - unless you e.g. want to 1:1 copy "Native gameplay".

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Then perhaps we'll start sketching out a draft of something more ambitious ...
Are you going to program all the changes in game logic or create the graphics required yourself? :dunno:
(Or at least want to invest the majority of the effort required for this feature?)

Otherwise where is the modder (i.e. programmer) that said he will take responsibility for it?
Because the modder that is implementing it will most likely also come up with his own concept.

No modder ever wants to implement stuff that other people dictate because it is simply not fun.
Also nobody can tell a modder how much effort he is supposed to invest in his spare time.

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Again if a modder is motivated to implement it, it could become really interesting. :)
But until that modder has shown up and says "I will work on it", I see little reason to discuss detailed concepts (that are not his).

So let us simply wait for the modder that is acutally motivated and skilled to invest the effort required. :thumbsup:
And then let us simply see what he suggests as concept which he may actually really be interested to implement.

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To get the ball rolling, ...
There is no such thing as a "ball rolling" if you don`t have a modder (programmer) commiting to work on in.
So sure, you can continue posting and discussing, but until you found that programmer to volunteer it is just wasting time.

Because nothing will be implemented without skilled modders wanting to implement. Even if there are 100 ideas of other people.
In 99% of the time these modders will want to design their own concept since they know best what they can implement and how much effort it is.

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So ok we have a first idea, but now we need to do this:

Step 1: Find a modder (i.e. programmer) interested.
Step 2: Let that modder come up with a (base) concept he likes.
Step 3: Discuss details of the concept with that modder.
Step 4: Organize the support that modder requires.

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Therefore, I will use this thread to collect ideas for gameplay ...
Please let the modder implementing the feature and thus invests most of the effort for it also design the concept for it. :thumbsup:
He will know best what he actually is skilled enough to do and how much effort he is motivated to invest for it.

Once you try to dictate what a modder should implement I promise you nothing will ever be implemented at all. (Because it ruins the fun and creativity.)
Modding is based on volunteers motivated to implement their own wishes and dreams according to their own time and skill, not what others want.

You suggested your idea and it generally sounds interesting. :thumbsup:
But there is just
no way to force implementation on it if there is no programmer that volunteers.

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If people want, they can search and collect graphics (here in the forum) or do research for articles. :)
But the
game concept is really done best by the programmer taking responsibility to actually implement.

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Of course if you want to learn modding (incl. programming) and are willing to invest the work required, sure then also design the concept. :thumbsup:
(This is however not a beginner´s task.)

Otherwise there are maybe 3 active Civ4Col programmers that could atually implement something like an interesting "Escaped Slave Civ" properly.
(But none of them has yet raised a hand and said "I want to work on it and take repsonsibility for its implementation.".)

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So let us not discuss making cheese from milk before we have a cow and know how much milk it wants to give ... ;)
(Especially since finding that cow may be much more difficult than you may expect.)

Also maybe start iteratively with one clearly specified smaller consept that can be implemented with reasonable effort and build from that.
Not with 20 different features that completely scare and overwhelm any new modder that is just trying to get started and is still learning.

Because everything else is just the way that "dead concepts" are created - wasting time for discussions without result.
(Long elaborate posts that are so complicated to understand and so much effort to implement that nobody will ever start trying.)

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Stay realistic, find people actually motivated to work, approach things step by step, start small and build iteratively from that ... and eventually you may succeed. :)
Run around chaotically without plan, have no people to actually work, create unrealistic expectations, overexagerate complexity ... and you will fail for sure. :undecide:

Throwing around 100 ideas is actually counterproductive because it just increases confusion and complexity.
Actually starting to work on implementation and demonstrating progress step by step is the much better choice.

Front loading a concept with complex ideas for months
before actually starting work at all is the best way to have it fail ...
At least that is my experience (both in modding and professionally).

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Give a potentially motivated modder a chance to even get started at all before burrying him in even more ideas. ;)
(Also then first figure out what the modder that may work on this will actually like to do and is able to implement.)

If you are able to find a programmer that will invest 20 hours of effort first you are already lucky but you might convince him to continue.
(Scaring a programmer away by directly throwing 200 hours of effort of other people`s ideas at him however is maybe not the best strategy ...)

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So let us hope there is a modder (programmer) that wants to give this concept his time and motivation. :thumbsup:
Once there is I would also support here and there if I like the concept design he creates and commits.

Until then let us please not demotivate a potential modder by forcing a concept design on him in which he was not involved.
He will be the one investing most of the time and motivation for it, so it is also his right to define how his contribution may look like.

After that community, team and supporters may give feedback and decide if it may be accepted and integrated in WTP core mod.
But it is not up to others to tell a modder how much effort he shall invest and also we can not know what he is able to do.

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In other words:
Let us please not plan the party without the host who is actually "paying" for it.
;)
(Once we know how much he is actually able and willing to afford, we can discuss what the rest of us contributes additionally.)

Or again in other words:
The people that actually implement stuff should also design it so they are able and willing to implement it. :)

(Since they know best what is feasible for them and how much effort they will like to invest.)

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Please understand:
When people from community try to design concepts without the modder (in this case programmer) that is actually going to implement it, it is pretty sure to fail.
Because it completely ignores the fact that modding - i.e. voluntary contribution - is driven by personal taste , personal motivation and personal skills.
Discussing details of a concept without the modder that may actually implement it, is the best way to kill it - because that will ruin the fun for any modder.

By the way:
I am just trying to explain, because I would actually like to see something like a "Escaped Slave Civ" to be implemented. :thumbsup:
 
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When people from community try to design concepts without the modder (in this case programmer) that is actually going to implement it, it is pretty sure to fail.
Pretty much this. I once had a game design meeting as a teen and it turned out that the guy who called the meeting had decided to be leader and "idea guy" so he had made some concept drawing on how it should be and then the rest of us should then make him a AAA game based on that. He got upset when we said that would not happen, like it was just us being lazy rather than the goal being unreachable. Even today I wouldn't be able to do what he asked me for back then. Needless to say that never went anywhere.

Ideas are good and it can happen that really good ideas come from people who contribute nothing, but ideas. However just having the idea is changes nothing if nobody will or can make it a reality. The idea as I read it isn't awful, but we would require more people. Our current limitation is man-hours of programming tasks, particularly when complex code is required. This means if somebody makes this, it's not a free addition, it's many hours of work, which could have been put into something else. So if I am to make it, I would have the choice between this or do say the redesign of automated trade routes I have mentioned in another thread. In other words it's not just a question of wanting a task done, but more which one is the most important.

Once there was a bug in Medieval Conquest where animals could conquer cities. They would wander around randomly and if they randomly ended up on a plot with a non-animal unit, it would attack, precisely as intended. However if said plot would be a city and it would beat the last unit there, it would conquer the city (not intended). The game then ran through the normal city code and then crash because the animal player did not have a default city growth unit (usually free colonist or native braves in WTP). I would guess that if a growth unit was added, then it would figure out no king, so it would be a native and then assign an expert from a list. The player would then not have such a list, which in turn might also crash the game.

After modding for years we have gained a feeling for when an idea has a risk of needing a lot of work due to such conflicts with existing code and the proposal in this thread seems to be at risk for having that problem. That's why it has been on the wishlist for a decade without being implemented.
 
While I completely agree with the comments from @raystuttgart and @Nightinggale above, I'd just like to remark that what this thread is about is not just a simple "feature suggestion".
For me, it is rather a request for a general "design focus" emphasizing more on the perspective of those people who were harmed by colonization (historical colonization, not primarily the video game Colonization).
I would take it as such a general request and I myself feel an urgent need for rectifying the strong focus on the colonizers/aggressors which was even stronger in vanilla, but still is what the game revolves around in its current version.

Collecting ideas on how to improve representation is a valuable undertaking in my opinion. But because I myself was very sceptical about the programming and artwork effort required for deeper change of game mechanics (eg. additional civs, playable natives, more complex AI activities etc.), my suggestion was to start with adding colopedia texts. Adding small events referencing eg. the Palmares would be another small step. But I think a fair representation would be more difficult in events than in "out of context"-colopedia entries. Pointing out real life atrocities in game events might be difficult (and probably trivialise the "real stories" behind those).

As I said, game mechanics are a completely different story, and as long as I don't get a much deeper understanding of the game code (which might not happen in my lifetime ...) it doesn't help to shout "Here, I'm volunteering" because I completely agree with
there are maybe 3 active Civ4Col programmers that could actually implement something like an interesting "Escaped Slave Civ" properly.
and unfortunately I am not one of those ...
 
... rather for a request for a general "design focus" ...
Whatever it is, it will need somebody motivated to work on it. :)
And motivation simply cannot be generated extrinsically, it comes intrisically.

I myself feel an urgent need ...
That sounds like you are motivated to take responsibility and leadership for it. :)
Nobody expects you to be done by tomorrow of course and the first steps may be simple.

... and unfortunately I am not one of those ...
Why not? Nobody expects you to implement this in a few weeks only. :)
The most important aspects are motivation and perseverance.

If somebody is really serious about investing his own effort into this, other modders may help.
So once you create a design concept for this the rest of us may discuss it with you. :thumbsup:

But it is then you who first needs to tell us how much time and motivation you have.
Then the rest of us can discuss how we may support and help where needed.

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Collecting ideas on how to improve representation is a valuable undertaking in my opinion.
Collecting ideas is really pointless if there is nobody that is ever going to work on it.
So either we have a modder that wants to take responsibility for it or not. :dunno:

As long as I do not see a responsible modder behind a concept, there is no point for me to discuss it. :nope:
Because the longer you bloat a concept with ideas before starting, the less likely it is that it will ever be implemented.

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If nobody starts to work on this, just forget it right away ... it will save us a lot of pointless discussion.
Once somebody takes the first real implementation steps, it may grow iteratively. :thumbsup:

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But currently everybody seems to just be waiting that somebody is stupid enough to raise his hand ... :hmm:
That is the very first sign for me that a concept is not worth it, if nobody is willig to actually work for it.

If there is no motivation to work there is also no chance for success ...
Because this project will easily require months to be finished ...

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As I said:
I may support here and there. I may e.g. search or create graphics or answer questions.
But otherwise I am already busy for the next 2 years at least with other stuff I will implement.
 
Adding small events referencing eg. the Palmares would be another small step.
But I think a fair representation would be more difficult in events than in "out of context"-colopedia entries.
Then start with that once we finished Release 4.0. :thumbsup:
That is at least a first step to build on and get started.

That is investing actual work and would be something to "get the ball rolling". :)
Because as long as there is just talk, everybody will just lean back and wait for somebody else to start working.

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Somebody simply needs to commit and take responsibility to coordinate discussion and do most of the work himself
And that somebody needs to be a modder who is capable of actually implementing and also understands the efforts necessary.

Then we have somebody that may actually lead this to success. :thumbsup:
 
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But currently everybody seems to just be waiting that somebody is stupid enough to raise his hand ... :hmm:
I was only reluctant to "raise my hand" because I feel I lack the skills required. But if it is about someone to take coordination and overview in their hands, I would like to do this :)

I am already busy for the next 2 years at least with other stuff I will implement.
A realistic estimate for completion of this "project" would surely be more than two years, so it would be fine if you join in later ;)

I am fine with collecting ideas and I would even suggest opening a new thread for this, leaving the first two posts as editable for the actual work coordination.
 
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I was a only reluctant to "raise my hand" because I feel I lack the skills required.
Skills come with time and motivation. :)
Start with what you know and build from that.

I am fine with collecting ideas ...
Please do NOT just collect ideas. ;)
Come up with actual implementation concepts and demonstrate actual progress from time to time.

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Because if all of this is just about collecting ideas we can forget this right away.
In the end we will have a chaos of 1000 ideas and still nobody will have moved a finger to implement anything.

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It is your project now and you decide how you want to lead it to succes. :thumbsup:
It is up to you how much effort you will actually invest or not.

You will for sure get help here and there, but the expecation is that you invest most of the effort yourself.
Thus also design the concept in a way that you feel it is realistic to achieve it.

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So only take ideas on the list that you really want to work on ... only the things you yourself like.
Only design the concept with as much effort as you are willing to invest ... how long you need for it is secondary.

I promise you that everything else will result in failure ... because only motivation creates the perseverance that may lead to success.
I have seen endless projects that have been abandoned because expectations were overexagerated and motivation did run out.
 
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So ok, have fun designing and implementing the concept. :thumbsup:
Otherwise let us (team and community) know when you have questions or need help.

By the way for adding the "Maroon Civ":
I would suggest to create the Civ base structure in XML first and only after that start implementing DLL features.
i.e. copy a Native Nation as "Maroon Civ" or whatever you want to call it and start to create XML setup for graphics and balancing.

Work iteratively and change / add in small pieces. :)
And take as much time as you need. Chose the pace that suits you best.
 
I have opened a thread for coordinating this project here:

Adding a new civ will probably be found towards the end of the list as I can only imagine the dimensions of such an undertaking ...
 
Adding a new civ will probably be found towards the end of the list ...
You are the responsible for this. Work as you like. :)

I can only imagine the dimensions of such an undertaking ...
As I said, to implement the complete Civ I estimate about 100+ hours.
(Which however also includes at least some basic gameplay.)

Implementation of Wild Animals incl. spawning logic: about 20 hours
Implementation of Church with all DLL Diplo-Events: about 40 hours

But this will definitely be more effort if you want to make it worthwile.
(Since e.g. neither Wild Animals nor Church e.g. found Cities or have much gameplay.)
 
By the way:
When I was talking about a "Civ" I was talking about a "non-playable Civ" (adding e.g. a few Diplo-Events and such).
Because that is definitely the way more easy start than to make a "playable Civ".

Thus I suggest:
If you create a Civ, create it "non-playable" first because that will be much less effort.
Once that works you might consider to expand it to a "playable" one if you really want.
 
But it is then you who first needs to tell us how much time and motivation you have.
Then the rest of us can discuss how we may support and help where needed.
It's important to remember that we are a team, which is more than a group of individuals. Nobody knows everything and we all get stuck once in a while.

Whatever it is, it will need somebody motivated to work on it. :)
People can learn the code and learn new skills. People can't learn motivation and work attitude.

Work iteratively and change / add in small pieces. :)
And take as much time as you need. Chose the pace that suits you best.
Yeah split the project into a series of small milestones, each milestone ideally resulting in a playable game. Working on a non-working game for months or even years tend to kill motivation and will severely reduce the chance of success.
 
Slave revolts should be bigger and badder, depending on number of player cities, number of slaves, health, happiness, etc. This would tie in with parts of the latest update such as Crime and Law. Revolting slaves should be tougher, with a bonus in rough terrain and marshes. They could try to form a stack, and once they reach a certain number they might actively try to free other slaves and attack the player's infrastructure. À la Underground Railroad.

You need to be careful with this one, especially the frequency of such revolts. If they happen too much then it's possible slavery wouldn't be a viable system for the player to choose. That in turn would create a paradox as there clearly was a reason why colonists chose slavery as a somewhat risky endeavor, there clearly had to be some high reward to make it worth such risks.
 
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