1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Marshes, Mana, Vitalize, and Sanity.

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by Iceciro, Aug 24, 2009.

  1. Iceciro

    Iceciro Special Ability: Decimate

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,944
    Location:
    in ur empire, takin ur cities
    Allright, two open questions to the community.
    1) I know for a lot of civs, grasslands are good. But are they so good that they need to be restricted to Vitalize, a tier three nature spell?

    You can do all sorts of terraforming with other spells. Scorch turns useless snow all the way past Tundra to plains. Spring turns Desert to plains. Scorch turns Grassland to Plains (good for the scions or for plains hills for other civs.) All of these are good.
    But is the change from one food, one hammer to two food, no hammers worth sending all the way back to Nature III when all the other terraforming is done at Water or Sun I?

    Nature to me is kinda a black sheep of a spell line - Treetop defense is... good, but highly situational. Poisoned Blade is great for already strong high recon civs, but poor if you've got axemen.

    And then Vitalize, which is two tier one spells and the missing Plains-to-Grass spell. I don't know what I'd do about Nature, but I find it odd this one change to the land is locked deep away in a tier three spell.
    -------
    2) Why are marshes in the random map generator now, and why can't my workers drain them over time like they can cut down jungle?

    Marshes are annoying. No tech makes them workable, and they often cram their way right into my grasslands. This wouldn't be nearly as aggravating if my workers could drain them over time - perhaps 15 turns before a tech, 4 turns after a tech? Like cutting down jungles or other things that otherwise get in the way of things. While I'm aware you can scorch them away, should getting rid of marshes really ONLY be something you can do with magic? I find myself often going to Sun I just to get rid of marshes in my starting area. It wouldn't be so bad if they'd clump or stay in high jungle areas, but they can appear rather checkerboard like through any grassland or plains tile near a river.
     
  2. Kjara

    Kjara Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    164
    On Marshes--At least its possible to remove them. I remember at one point there were both swamps and Marshes and it was impossible to remove the marshes at all :).

    That being said, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to drain them, but I'd argue that it should either take a long time(even with the speed-up tech(s)), or be sped up by a later tech(engineering or math perhaps?--or even a 2nd major speed up then and a minor one earlier-- at perhaps construction?).

    Edit: Heres a random idea, perhaps workers should be able to flood(aka turn to marsh),plain tiles that have fresh water(and then these tiles could be drained to create grasslands). Flooding should prob destroy any improvements on the tile though(perhaps not farms?). Again, this should take a long time/be latish in the tech tree? If we did this, we could possibly swap poisoned blade to nature 1(and have it wear off after 1 combat?), vitalize to nature 2, and figure out a new nature 3 spell(perhaps something to do with a treant--perhaps a 10(12 if summoned out of an ancient forest-6 from a new forest) str+1 nature affinity perm summon that destroys the forest you are in or something).
     
  3. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,715
    I'd say "Yes." But then I'd rather see terraforming turned-down a bit.

    Anyway, what I'd do - were I doing anything - is have Vitalize give a random chance for the appearance of a terrain-appropriate Resource.
     
  4. ExMachina

    ExMachina Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    203
    I'm pretty surprised Vitalize is Teir III. Then again, all the Nature spells seem pretty weak, and Vitalize is probably the most useful one out of the lot.

    In any case, I think the terraforming spells fit perfectly at Tier I. They're just useful enough to give your adepts something to do, without being too good.
     
  5. Iceciro

    Iceciro Special Ability: Decimate

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,944
    Location:
    in ur empire, takin ur cities
    That's my feelings, ExMachina. The terraforming is a really nice t1 spell, but for t3? Nahhh.
    I could see Vitalize at t2 because it is worth both t1 spring and t1 scorch, depending on circumstances.
     
  6. ExMachina

    ExMachina Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    203
    I don't think it would be overpowering if Spring turned plains into grassland. The two terrain types are effectively equivalent. I'm not really sure what could take Vitalize's place, but I think Nature deserves some improvements for all its tiers.

    Vitalize at tier II would work too, I suppose.
     
  7. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    5,317
    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    I think Entangle would be better as a Nature sphere spell, rather than driuid specific. Druids would still get it anyway. Something along the lines of Charm Animal would be useful in there too, probably at T1
     
  8. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    5,317
    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Oh, also. Barkskin.

    +20% strength
    +1 First Strike
    -100% resistance to fire
    25% chance to wear off per turn.



    And about marshes, I do agree they're annoying. I think maybe a worker action with a pretty high cost (on par with lumbermills) and hurried by engineering would be nide. Drain Swamp/Marsh
     
  9. xalien

    xalien Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2005
    Messages:
    512
    Marshes can be scorched so they aren't much of a problem really.
     
  10. Iceciro

    Iceciro Special Ability: Decimate

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,944
    Location:
    in ur empire, takin ur cities
    Except if you're avoiding magic's line for some reason... like you're busy killing elves. :D
     
  11. Imrahil66

    Imrahil66 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    40
    orbis modmod had ability to drain/improve marsh and swamp. It becames floodplain or something like that with food bonus - but I dont remember it well :).
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,229
    Location:
    Kael's head
    No, Entangle would be best as a Guardian Vines spell. Guardian Vines would be best if they were once again a Nature summon.

    Why is it that when Kael merged sorcery and summoning he kept summons that were essentially each other's clones but got rid of the most unique ones? This immobile, permanent, defensive summon was probably my favorite. He brought the unit back when lairs were added, but not as a summon. Naturally, the unit should gain Guardsman, or at least defend first.



    Charm Animal sounds too similar to Mezmerize Animal, the Satyr spell.

    (In my version this is no longer unit specific, but requires the Satyr race and the subdue animal promotion. Satyrs gain the ability to upgrade to Beastmasters or Druids, and Yvain becomes a Satyr Druid Hero. I also added a Mezmerize Beast spell requiring Subdue Beast and Satyr which works just like Mezmerize Animal but on beasts and with a higher chance to resist.)
     
  13. Breez

    Breez King

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    924
    I don't ever get the Natuer line of spells. just not worth the promos that are better spent on other things.

    I LOVE terraforming, PLEASE don't make that harder/less convenient.

    Personally I say terraforming should not be part of Nature line at all. Nature is what it is. Typically it is Neutral, not good not bad. The antelope has to die so the Lion can live. The lion doesn't kill because it is evil, it does to survive. Any manipulation of it isn't Natural by definition. I Love Poison Blade.

    Personally I would like to see,
    Tier 1: Warkirby's Idea above for Barkskin.
    Tier 2: As is
    Tier 3: Summon Guardian Vine.

    (Marshes would be nice if workers could deal with, but since Scorch can do it now I don't mind so much, compared to when NOTHING could do it.
     
  14. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,715
    Dropping Guardian Vines back into Nature strikes me as a good idea. Hmm... replacing any Nature spell. The GV's strength could be scaled to fit, and I'm not a fan of any of them.

    I think it'd be more accurate to say the antelope has to doe so there can be more antelopes.

    Though that does benefit lions, true.
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,229
    Location:
    Kael's head
    Vitalize would likely make at least as much or more sense in the Creation sphere than in Nature.
     
  16. Breez

    Breez King

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    924
    Die! =P
     
  17. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    5,317
    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Just a side note.

    I don't see why adding new spells means an old one has to be removed to accomodate it. There's certainly no technical restrictions on tying multiple spells to one spellsphere promotion.

    I guess it's a question of balance. Some specific spells are already incredibly useful, that could justify other spheres having multiple spells.


    Personally, I'd like to see the nature line more like:

    Chanelling I
    • Treetop Defense
    • Charm Animal

    Channelling II
    • Barkskin
    • Poison Blade
    • Entangle

    Chanelling III
    • Summon Treant
    • Summon Guardian Vine
    • Some sort of big "Nature's Wrath" type spell that does nasty things to enemies standing in forests or jungles.


    It's just a personal preference, but I find that sticking to the rigid "one spell per level" structure is really boring and inflexible.
     
  18. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,715
    Am I being flamed, or is that just a correction? ;)
     
  19. Iceciro

    Iceciro Special Ability: Decimate

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,944
    Location:
    in ur empire, takin ur cities
    I love the idea of spreading spells out. I feel there's a lot more that can be done with spells than one per level.

    I may need to do a rather big spell module... :D
     
  20. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,715
    I've always had the impression that the great god Kael, already angered by our presumptuousness, would find that the last straw and strike us down with fire and lightening. *Shrug* Maybe that's just me.

    But yes, I agree.
     

Share This Page