Mass grave of children and infants in Tuam, Co. Galway.

[Willem]

20th-century Ireland was not like Africa.

It wasn't that far off during that time. Ireland was the most impoverished European nation during that period, with the highest rate of infant mortality as well. Compounded with the religious attitude of the time, it's not that surprising that children born out of wedlock would suffer the most during any lean years. All it would take is one bad local harvest and those kids would have been guaranteed to go hungry for the next year or so.

What happened to them was deliberate.

And you have definitive proof of that I suppose? I'm sure there would be enough of a reason to lay a charge of neglect against that institution, possibly even criminal negligence, but hardly murder. If you're intending to kill someone, and intent is part of the definition of murder, there's much better ways of doing it than malnourishing them and waiting for some deadly disease to strike.

I'm not trying to downplay the fact that there was no doubt abuse going on there, my objection was simply someone stating that the children were thrown in a pit to die and were in fact murdered that way. That's nothing but hyperbole and doesn't even come close to what that article mentioned about the situation. I'd be surprised if the poster of that statement even read the article, he just jumped to a grossly inaccurate conclusion.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

And you have definitive proof of that I suppose? I'm sure there would be enough of a reason to lay a charge of neglect against that institution, possibly even criminal negligence, but hardly murder. If you're intending to kill someone, and intent is part of the definition of murder, there's much better ways of doing it than malnourishing them and waiting for some deadly disease to strike.

Look, nobody deprives a child of food by accident. And it's the easiest way to kill and claim the child was sick, instead of deliberately starved.

 

[Willem]

Look, nobody deprives a child of food by accident.

We're discussing an institution that goes way back to the turn of the 20th century, in the most impoverished nation in Europe. They didn't have refrigeration or a transportation network that distributes food globally. They relied almost solely on local harvests for the entire time they were in operation. And if there was a particularly weak season in any of the 35 years they existed, those children would have been the first to be required to make sacrifices because of the prevailing religious attitude. And they would have been expected to make a sacrifice for at least a year before the next local harvest was ready. Put it in some sort of historical perspective instead of passing judgment according to today's standards. You know absolutely nothing of the situation, yet you've already come to the conclusion that there was some nefarious plot at work. That my friend is called prejudice. You know, pre-judge? Get some facts before you start jumping to conclusions. Or do you not believe in the expression "Innocent until proven guilty."

Everyone seems to be jumping on this "mass-grave" thing and drawing conclusions from it because of the connotations that have come from such things, due to modern day massacres and war crimes. The mass grave in this situation was a pre-dug hole that used to be for a septic system. It may have been simply convenient for them to use it for burial purposes, seeing as how they were not allowed to give those kids a proper burial due to church doctrine at the time.

 

[Old Hippy]

That my friend is called prejudice. You know, pre-judge? Get some facts before you start jumping to conclusions. Or do you not believe in the expression "Innocent until proven guilty."

before you get to innocent or guilty, you need an investigation, most importantly you need an accusation to have an investigation, sometimes these things take a long time, recently the Australian parliament apologized for treatment of British 'orphans' it took some 50 years of accusations to get an investigation
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/0910/ChildMigrants

there would be a lot of 'surviving' Irish orphans who would like the truth known...

Link to video.

 

[Willem]

before you get to innocent or guilty, you need an investigation, most importantly you need an accusation to have an investigation...

You don't need an accusation, just a reasonable doubt. And there certainly is that in this situation. But people shouldn't be coming to such drastic conclusions based on a single story posted on an internet news site. I read that article on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) news site, and in no way was there any inference of outright murder, only of neglect. Should an investigation occur, I think people would find that there was the same level of abuse and negligence that occurred in many institutions where the Roman Catholic church was placed in charge of children. We had the same sort of thing here in Canada with the residential schools that were set up to "educate" the native children.

 

[Old Hippy]

You don't need an accusation, just a reasonable doubt. And there certainly is that in this situation. But people shouldn't be coming to such drastic conclusions based on a single story posted on an internet news site. I read that article on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) news site, and in no way was there any inference of outright murder, only of neglect. Should an investigation occur, I think people would find that there was the same level of abuse and negligence that occurred in many institutions where the Roman Catholic church was placed in charge of children. We had the same sort of thing here in Canada with the residential schools that were set up to "educate" the native children.

what was that about pre-judge again...

should people wait till there are several stories about it, before asking for an investigation, you have a resonable doubt, others have an accusation and want it investigated, hence the call of signing the petition, which aims at getting to the truth, yes it's hyped but the point is to shame the authorities into action, they don't seem to have bothered much up to now

it is only when people with curent responsibility get presured that things happen, you often have to make it uncomfortable to not investigate, to get an investigation of matters like this.

 

[Willem]

what was that about pre-judge again...

should people wait till there are several stories about it, before asking for an investigation, you have a resonable doubt, others have an accusation and want it investigated, hence the call of signing the petition, which aims at getting to the truth, yes it's hyped but the point is to shame the authorities into action, they don't seem to have bothered much up to now

it is only when people with curent responsibility get presured that things happen, you often have to make it uncomfortable to not investigate, to get an investigation of matters like this.

I'm not suggesting there be no investigation. By all means do so. All I'm saying is don't jump to conclusions and insinuate nefarious conspiracies before there is concrete evidence to prove them, which some people in this thread are doing. Murder requires intent, and there is absolutely no proof at this time that there was any. Neglect, most certainly, but an intent to kill? No.

I'm absolutely amazed that no one seems to be getting what I'm trying to say here, and painting me as the bad guy. I'm not. My original post was to someone who implied that children were being thrown into a pit while still alive and left to do die. I was merely trying to set the facts straight, nothing more. There is absolutely no evidence that this activity occurred, none at all. The circumstances of this story are being blown way out of proportion.

Just to provide some perspective, here's an article on the Canadian residential schools for natives, which the Roman Catholic church also were responsible for, as well as the Anglicans. Pay particular attention to the section where they discuss the mortality rate in those institutions. Sound familiar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system

 

[Old Hippy]

I'm absolutely amazed that no one seems to be getting what I'm trying to say here, and painting me as the bad guy. I'm not. My original post was to someone who implied that children were being thrown into a pit while still alive and left to do die. I was merely trying to set the facts straight, nothing more. There is absolutely no evidence that this activity occurred, none at all.

I get what you say, and don't see you as a bad guy, but there is no evidence at all, as an investigation has not been done, so it also means you are basing your views on no evidence at all and after so much time without an investigation, a little "it's a cover up, they killed babies, the murders" is the sort of pressure that forces people to take action and investigate, doorstops on politicians/church leaders asking whats happening with the investigation, signs held up at events etc.etc. it led to a Royal commission here, changes to the law and acknowledgment to the survivors, but it took 50 years of getting the issue into the news

 

[Agent327]

You don't need an accusation, just a reasonable doubt. And there certainly is that in this situation. But people shouldn't be coming to such drastic conclusions based on a single story posted on an internet news site. I read that article on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) news site, and in no way was there any inference of outright murder, only of neglect. Should an investigation occur, I think people would find that there was the same level of abuse and negligence that occurred in many institutions where the Roman Catholic church was placed in charge of children. We had the same sort of thing here in Canada with the residential schools that were set up to "educate" the native children.

Really? So where are the other mass graves resulting from the 'same level of abuse and neglicence'?

You seem very good at making excuses. How about you sign the petition first to see what of your excuses hold up?

 

[Willem]

Really? So where are the other mass graves resulting from the 'same level of abuse and neglicence'?

Read the article on Canadian residential schools I linked to. One school had a mortality rate of 69%, and 60% of those schools were run by the Catholic church according to that article. The situation in some of those schools may even have been worse than what happened in Tuam. The bottom line is that the Catholic church could be real bastards when it came to children they deemed "unworthy", regardless of where that may be. Tuam was really quite typical of their treatment during that period. That doesn't excuse them of course, but at the same time people shouldn't be blowing this particular story out of all proportion.

You seem very good at making excuses. How about you sign the petition first to see what of your excuses hold up?

We Canadians have plenty of our own skeletons in the closet, the Irish need to deal with theirs.

 

[Agent327]

Read the article on Canadian residential schools I linked to. One school had a mortality rate of 69%, and 60% of those schools were run by the Catholic church according to that article. The situation in some of those schools may even have been worse than what happened in Tuam. The bottom line is that the Catholic church could be real bastards when it came to children they deemed "unworthy", regardless of where that may be. Tuam was really quite typical of their treatment during that period.

Seeing as you're basically saying the same thing again, here's my question again:

So where are the other mass graves resulting from the 'same level of abuse and neglicence'?

We Canadians have plenty of our own skeletons in the closet, the Irish need to deal with theirs.

The Irish dealing with their own is what led to this in the first place.

 

[Borachio]

It wasn't just a mass grave for infants, but a mass grave for infants in a septic tank, if I've understood correctly.

If that's not the sort of thing to put you off Catholicism, I don't suppose anything will.

 

[gangleri2001]

Báidín Phápa d'imigh go an séarach
Báidín Phápa is leanaí ann
Báidín Phápa d'imigh go an séarach
Báidín Phápa is leanaí ann

Spoiler :

Pope's little boat went to the sewer
Pope's little boat and there're children in there
Pope's little boat went to the sewer
Pope's little boat and there're children in there

If you don't get it, google báidín Fheilimí

 

[Willem]

Seeing as you're basically saying the same thing again, here's my question again: So where are the other mass graves resulting from the 'same level of abuse and neglicence'?

For crying out loud. A 69% mortality rate, put two and two together. 3000 natives died in the residential school system, that's a lot more than at Tuam. The only reason why there's no mass grave in some of those residential schools is that was no hole conveniently pre-dug like there was in Tuam. As I mentioned earlier, people are fixating over this "mass grave " thing. It was a hole that was already there so they decided to use it since they weren't allowed, or weren't willing, to give them a proper Christian burial.

The Irish dealing with their own is what led to this in the first place.

So why is trying to force them to take responsibility my problem? Canada still hasn't fully dealt with own abuses, it would be hypocritical for me to point a finger at some other country for doing the same thing we did.

 

[Agent327]

For crying out loud. A 69% mortality rate, put two and two together. 3000 natives died in the residential school system, that's a lot more than at Tuam. The only reason why there's no mass grave in some of those residential schools is that was no hole conveniently pre-dug like there was in Tuam. As I mentioned earlier, people are fixating over this "mass grave " thing. It was a hole that was already there so they decided to use it since they weren't allowed, or weren't willing, to give them a proper Christian burial.

These children were deemed unfit for Christian burial. It is beginning to look like you don't understand the issue at hand at all.

So why is trying to force them to take responsibility my problem? Canada still hasn't fully dealt with own abuses, it would be hypocritical for me to point a finger at some other country for doing the same thing we did.

A petition, for all intents and purposes, is a request, nothing more. But seeing as you're so concerned about Canada's history of abuse, we'll eagerly await your personal petition on your native country's misconducts.

 

[Willem]

These children were deemed unfit for Christian burial. It is beginning to look like you don't understand the issue at hand at all.

I understand perfectly, and I've mentioned that same very thing several times now had you actually read my posts instead of simply jumping to conclusions.

A petition, for all intents and purposes, is a request, nothing more.

And what exactly is an investigation supposed to accomplish? The place was closed in 1940, there's probably no one alive that either worked or lived there. All that's left is the Catholic church. But who are they supposed to apologize and/or make reparations to if no one is alive anymore? And they're not going to learn anything new from the investigation as it won't be the first time they've been made aware that they were treating kids shamefully in the past. I'm sure they understand fully by now that this is no way to treat children and have adjusted their policies.

But seeing as you're so concerned about Canada's history of abuse, we'll eagerly await your personal petition on your native country's misconducts.

Had you actually read the article I linked to instead of simply passing judgment with absolutely no knowledge, you'd realize that we have already had our petition and our investigation and are in the process of reconciling with the survivors and making amends. Still, while I don't consider myself a Christian, I do believe in that saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Considering our history, it's not my place to tell the Irish how they should be dealing with their situation.

 

[Agent327]

I understand perfectly, and I've mentioned that same very thing several times now had you actually read my posts instead of simply jumping to conclusions.

And what exactly is an investigation supposed to accomplish? The place was closed in 1940, there's probably no one alive that either worked or lived there.

From the first post:

the local health authority had the following to say on the state of the poor children essentially imprisoned in the place:
Quote:
A local health board inspection report from April 1944 recorded 271 children and 61 single mothers in residence, a total of 333 in a building that had a capacity for 243.

The report described the children as “emaciated,” “pot-bellied,” “fragile” with “flesh hanging loosely on limbs.” The report noted that 31 children in the “sun room and balcony” were “poor, emaciated and not thriving.” The effects of long term neglect and malnutrition were observed repeatedly.

All that's left is the Catholic church. But who are they supposed to apologize and/or make reparations to if no one is alive anymore? And they're not going to learn anything new from the investigation as it won't be the first time they've been made aware that they were treating kids shamefully in the past. I'm sure they understand fully by now that this is no way to treat children and have adjusted their policies.

I admire your confidence in the Church. A confidence that has proven misplaced until pope Francis took action upon being elected. A church whose officials have had the gall to respond with statements such as 'the number of cleric pedofiles is the same as among non-clerics' (ignoring why these clerics then received special treatment instead of being convicted) and 'Wir haben es nicht gewusst' (We didn't know; a Dutch former bishop lying through his teeth about Church cover up of abuse and insulting Jews in the process).

You are also forgetting that this was a state institution, meaning it is not just the Church that is to blame.

Had you actually read the article I linked to instead of simply passing judgment with absolutely no knowledge, you'd realize that we have already had our petition and our investigation and are in the process of reconciling with the survivors and making amends. Still, while I don't consider myself a Christian, I do believe in that saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Considering our history, it's not my place to tell the Irish how they should be dealing with their situation.

You linked to a wiki article about Canadian Aboriginals. I have some knowledge of how 'civilized' people treated Indians, it contains little that is new to me.

Contrary to your assumption my judgment, as you call it, is based on the law. But should I wish to cast a stone (I do not), I am perfectly able to do so. I am 52 and have never abused a child in my life. I don't consider that special, I consider that normal. Furthermore, the law agrees with me - which is the important thing here. There is clear evidence laws have been broken and even if nothing at all comes of it, if laws have been broken investigation is in order, even 40 years after the date.

I will assume your earlier number of a 67% mortality rate is a typo or we are discussing the equivalent of death camps here. These weren't death camps, these were charity institutions. The very least that one may expect from such an institution is a shred of common decency. Forgive me if I see no sign whatsoever of that here.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

We're discussing an institution that goes way back to the turn of the 20th century, in the most impoverished nation in Europe. They didn't have refrigeration or a transportation network that distributes food globally. They relied almost solely on local harvests for the entire time they were in operation. And if there was a particularly weak season in any of the 35 years they existed, those children would have been the first to be required to make sacrifices because of the prevailing religious attitude. And they would have been expected to make a sacrifice for at least a year before the next local harvest was ready. Put it in some sort of historical perspective instead of passing judgment according to today's standards. You know absolutely nothing of the situation, yet you've already come to the conclusion that there was some nefarious plot at work. That my friend is called prejudice. You know, pre-judge? Get some facts before you start jumping to conclusions. Or do you not believe in the expression "Innocent until proven guilty."

Do not presume to address me as "my friend." We are not friends, and your attitude on this issue disgusts me.

No, the children did not "make sacrifices." That presumes they had a choice, which they did not. The adults chose to deprive them of food and then not even treat their remains with dignity.

It wasn't just a mass grave for infants, but a mass grave for infants in a septic tank, if I've understood correctly.

If that's not the sort of thing to put you off Catholicism, I don't suppose anything will.

Any private citizen disposing of dead bodies in this way would be charged.

So why is trying to force them to take responsibility my problem? Canada still hasn't fully dealt with own abuses, it would be hypocritical for me to point a finger at some other country for doing the same thing we did.

What overwhelming compassion.

A petition, for all intents and purposes, is a request, nothing more. But seeing as you're so concerned about Canada's history of abuse, we'll eagerly await your personal petition on your native country's misconducts.

I wonder, Willem, if you have signed any of the several petitions currently circulating to get the RCMP to do a real, thorough investigation into the many missing (and presumed dead) Aboriginal women along the Highway of Tears?

 

[Rashiminos]

I don't know how active I will be on this thread, as I hardly ever frequent CFC any more, but I felt it imperative to publicise the issue as widely as possibly I can, so thanks for reading, and if you want to reply to me in any way, I'm pretty frequent over at Realms Beyond.

@the mods: Hopefully I'm correct in wrapping this in the RD tags, if not I apologise.

Is there a lot of background on Frances Fitzgerald TD, or is it reasonably safe to assume angelmaking hands are going to find their ways into the pockets of the minister?

 

[Yeekim]

And what exactly is an investigation supposed to accomplish? The place was closed in 1940, there's probably no one alive that either worked or lived there.

The article claimed it was operational from 1925-1961...