Mass murderer Anders Breivik threatens Hunger Strike for better ... Video Games

[Akka]

It's not posturing, it's just refusing to kowtow to instincts. I rationally decide that the point of the justice system is to reduce crime, and work from there. For people who want to give weight to their variant of 'justice', the reduced crime is merely a perk. Ehn, I disagree.

"I rationally decide that I'm going to redefine what justice is" => and I'm supposed to believe it's not posturing ?
Seems pretty arrogant at the very least, and empty rhetoric just as I said.

Also, refusing to kowtow to instinct is not a goal in itself - or you could as well simply kill yourself and refuse your instinct to live. The desire of justice is quite more than the caricature of "bloodlust" that is so often disingenuously made of it. Again, our entire society is more or less based on it, if you want nothing less than change the entire society, maybe you should make a stronger case than "I unilateraly decided what should be, just because".

 

[DinoDoc]

Many conservatives still seem to prefer retribution to justice and modern criminal practices.

Indeed. Why haven't we given the man his PS4 yet? Not to mention an allowance for hookers and beer.

 

[classical_hero]

Many conservatives still seem to prefer retribution to justice and modern criminal practices.

I mean someone who is given a death penalty cannot ever kill again. We have seen when people who have committed murder and go back into to society have killed again in cases, meaning those who were murdered by previous murderers, meaning the the justice system failed them.

 

[El_Machinae]

"I rationally decide that I'm going to redefine what justice is" => and I'm supposed to believe it's not posturing ?

The point of the justice system, not the point of 'justice'.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

The thing is, if Breivik does indeed start a hunger strike, the norwegian authorities are obliged to force feed him. And, depending on how you do it, this actually CAN be torture.


Link to video.

Oh Wow
I didn't realized I was potentially tortured when I had my appendix removed.
Because after the operation they also put such a tube through my nose and into my stomach to pump some crap out of it if I recall correctly.
And yeah, it isn't comfortable. The doc gave me basically no warning and just BANG put that tube into that nse like he was a nose-tube-contractor paid by the hour. Really really uncomfortable and my eyes got a bit wet because it came so unexpected. You body just has a strong and understandable instinct against tubes entering your nose and making their way through half of your body which makes the experience very irritating. And they had this tube stay in me for quit some time. Days if I remember correctly. Which in time started to irritate the throat and in general was also uncomfortable. But that's it.
It wasn't actually very painful let alone panic-inducing like water boarding or crazy-making like sleep deprivation or constant music. Really, that being torture is a stretch and that video is a bit hyperbolic.

 

[Kyriakos]

Oh Wow
I didn't realized I was potentially tortured when I had my appendix removed.
Because after the operation they also put such a tube through my nose and into my stomach to pump some crap out of it if I recall correctly.
And yeah, it isn't comfortable. The doc gave me basically no warning and just BANG put that tube into that nse like he was a nose-tube-contractor paid by the hour. Really really uncomfortable and my eyes got a bit wet because it came so unexpected. You body just has a strong and understandable instinct against tubes entering your nose and making their way through half of your body which makes the experience very irritating. And they had this tube stay in me for quit some time. Days if I remember correctly. Which in time started to irritate the throat and in general was also uncomfortable. But that's it.
It wasn't actually very painful let alone panic-inducing like water boarding or crazy-making like sleep deprivation or constant music. Really, that being torture is a stretch and that video is a bit hyperbolic.

Are you sure you haven't died and we all are just your swan hallucination song or something?

(i hate appendix-related medical stories... I suppose it has to do with a grandfather dieing from a botched appendix procedure).

 

[strijder20]

It wasn't actually very painful let alone panic-inducing like water boarding or crazy-making like sleep deprivation or constant music. Really, that being torture is a stretch and that video is a bit hyperbolic.

Being force-fed is torture. Some basic rights should not be touched, such as the right to feed oneself and the right to starve oneself when one does not want the former.

 

[Synobun]

Oh Wow
I didn't realized I was potentially tortured when I had my appendix removed.
Because after the operation they also put such a tube through my nose and into my stomach to pump some crap out of it if I recall correctly.
And yeah, it isn't comfortable. The doc gave me basically no warning and just BANG put that tube into that nse like he was a nose-tube-contractor paid by the hour. Really really uncomfortable and my eyes got a bit wet because it came so unexpected. You body just has a strong and understandable instinct against tubes entering your nose and making their way through half of your body which makes the experience very irritating. And they had this tube stay in me for quit some time. Days if I remember correctly. Which in time started to irritate the throat and in general was also uncomfortable. But that's it.
It wasn't actually very painful let alone panic-inducing like water boarding or crazy-making like sleep deprivation or constant music. Really, that being torture is a stretch and that video is a bit hyperbolic.

If you enjoy sex, being forced to have sex must be a pretty cool thing and I don't see why anyone would consider it a negative experience.

That's also sarcasm. The two situations cannot be compared. You had a tube put in due to medical necessity and since you were specifically there to get better. These people are being strapped down and force-fed whether they want to or not. Let me know how you feel about things when you get strapped down and forced into something you don't want to do.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

We have seen when people who have committed murder and go back into to society have killed again in cases, meaning those who were murdered by previous murderers, meaning the the justice system failed them.

And your source for that is what, exactly? Because I have a paper here that says otherwise.

Despite a great deal of information on various types of offenders, there is only limited longitudinal research on the offending
patterns, typologies, and recidivism of different types of homicide perpetrators. A random sample of 336 homicide offenders who
were released between the years 1990 and 2000 from the New Jersey Department of Corrections were identified and followed for a
minimum of 5 years. These offenders were tracked to determine if incarcerated homicide offenders who had no criminal histories
prior to their homicide conviction recidivated less, and which specific variables correlated with recidivism. As a result of our
analysis, we conceptualized a new four-fold typology of homicide offenders: 1) homicide that was precipitated by a general
altercation or argument, 2) homicide during the commission of a felony, 3) domestic violence-related homicide, and 4) a homicide
after an accident. In conclusion, none of the 336 homicide offenders committed another murder. However, we found the highest
recidivism for new violent or drug crimes occurred in the felony homicide group (slightly over one-third), followed by the
altercation precipitated homicide offenders (27%), which was in sharp contrast to the domestic violence homicide offenders with
less than 10% recidivism due to a new violent or drug offense.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Are you sure you haven't died and we all are just your swan hallucination song or something?

I am not.
But I am a lot more clueless about what a swan hallucination song might be

(i hate appendix-related medical stories... I suppose it has to do with a grandfather dieing from a botched appendix procedure).

Luckily I seem to have been in very competent hands, otherwise I may have joined your grandfather as my appendix ruptured during the operation, infesting my entire stomach with delicious bacteria (hence the tube pumping stuff out of it).

Being force-fed is torture. Some basic rights should not be touched, such as the right to feed oneself and the right to starve oneself when one does not want the former.

It is torture because it violates my rights?
That makes no sense. How can it make sense to you?

If you enjoy sex, being forced to have sex must be a pretty cool thing and I don't see why anyone would consider it a negative experience.

That's also sarcasm. The two situations cannot be compared. You had a tube put in due to medical necessity and since you were specifically there to get better. These people are being strapped down and force-fed whether they want to or not. Let me know how you feel about things when you get strapped down and forced into something you don't want to do.

I agree that the two situations are different. The point is that I fail to see how this difference means torture.

 

[Bulldog Bats]

A lot of law-abiding people could only dream of a place that nice to live.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, I'm not sure being force fed itself is 'torture' as defined. But, it's certainly an unacceptable stripping of human dignity.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not sure whether a hunger-striker being force-fed is being tortured or not.

Doesn't he have the option to continue eating normally?

And don't the authorities have an obligation to keep him alive?

I agree you could make the procedure uncomfortable enough to constitute torture, but isn't it more a matter of violating a human right than torture?

 

[Synobun]

I'm not sure whether a hunger-striker being force-fed is being tortured or not.

Doesn't he have the option to continue eating normally?

And don't the authorities have an obligation to keep him alive?

I agree you could make the procedure uncomfortable enough to constitute torture, but isn't it more a matter of violating a human right than torture?

My understanding of torture is that it's all about violating human rights.

I mean, Amnesty International seems to agree with me:

"Torture is the systematic and deliberate infliction of acute pain by one person on another, or on a third person, in order to accomplish the purpose of the former against the will of the latter."

Even while being strapped down, resisting can make even the simplest of procedures significantly more difficult. I doubt the people who were hunger-striking immediately went limp upon being restrained.

 

[Borachio]

Well, they should indeed go limp upon being restrained. What's the point in struggling?

(This is dreadfully easy for me to say, of course.)

 

[El_Machinae]

My understanding of torture is that it's all about violating human rights.

I disagree. I think you cannot torture without violating rights, but you can violate rights without torturing.

 

[Borachio]

Yeah. That's true. You can violate human rights without torturing. (For example, violating privacy isn't necessarily torture.)

But that doesn't mean torture isn't all about violating human rights.

Still... ho hum... depends what you mean, I guess.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

To me torture just means states of unpleasantness no one can reasonably be asked to bear.

 

[Dralix]

And don't the authorities have an obligation to keep him alive?

Personally, I think they have an obligation to keep him alive as long as he wants to be kept alive. In other words, if he wants to take his own life, go right ahead.

I'm pretty sure that most authorities don't agree with me though.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

@Dralix
On the first level of things I agree with you. My sentimentality about staying alive offers no justification to impose this sentiment on someone not sharing it. This person may later on have liked to live, but I also see no justification with concerning myself with the concerns of the non-existent. Which a person will be once dead.
However, on the second level we also need to consider people who care about a person. I mean, really care. Friends, family and so forth. I'd think that their pain and suffering by a suicide outweighs the pain and suffering of someone suicidal being kept from killing him or herself. Especially because this state of mind does not tend to be very stable, a lot less stable than the pain of the suicide of a loved one for those left behind.