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MASS SHOOTING AT UMPQUA COLLEGE in Oregon

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by abradley, Oct 1, 2015.

  1. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    I prefer to think of it as an incandescent position attack, but, hey, I say tomato, you say the reason tomatoes are generally thought of as a vegetable instead of a fruit is a conspiracy by whitey to keep the black man down.

    What other possible reason other than a vast, hate filed conspiracy to arm whites against a presumed black uprising?

    That's a really low bar. Pitch overhand instead of these softballs.

    Alternative explanations include the long standing gun culture in America, the vested commercial and social interests advocating for looser gun laws, the fact that our second amendment was founded on protection from government rather than from blacks.


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  2. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    So now you are following up this latest incessant personal attack with yet another blatant strawman?

    Again, are you claiming that isn't a principal reason for them to acquire assault weapons with 30-shot magazines? :crazyeye:

    Wing-nuts with guns & dreams of a race war: Inside the dangerous obsessions of right-wing extremists

    You want even more statements of the obvious, which you can simply decide to ignore merely because they run contrary to your own clearly authoritarian conservative views?

    White supremacists sign up for military to train for race war — with little pushback from Pentagon

    White supremacists want a race war. They must not fight America's wars

    White supremacists accused of planning for 'race war' in Florida

    Beyond Dylann Roof: Why White Supremacists Want a Race War

    None of which addresses why such gaping holes are intentionally made in the existing gun laws to make it so easy to acquire untraceable guns to use in the commission of crimes. Now does it?

    And you still have not even tried to respond to the other question other than by making even more lame strawmen and personal attacks.

    Much less this one:

     
  3. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Chieftain

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    I disagree with you about the cause; it's not the gun culture, it's the media culture.
     
  4. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    It's one thing to say that a ban on guns is impractical in American society such as it is and another to deny that a society saturated with guns risks a high number of mass killings. I find comparisons to knife attacks elsewhere especially hilarious, given the vast difference in killing potential. Might as well say that a spearman and a tank are equally dangerous.

    Right-wingers are frequently delusional, I guess that's established.
     
  5. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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  6. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    They aren't the only ones. As we've seen in this thread, some left wingers are equally delusional in their convictions that bizarre outsider groups, like white power groups, somehow dictate national policy. These people appear to be convinced that hate dictates policy when it is in fact economic concerns and social inertia that drives the lack of change in gun control policies.


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  7. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    And now I'm "delusional" for providing hard evidence to support my positions, while you continue to intentionally evade or ignore my repeated questions regarding your own statements and positions in this matter.

    Again, how do you rationalize and defend these clearly reprehensible acts by the very people you vote into office?

    <crickets>
     
  8. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    As a self-described gun nut, I doubt many spree killers ever become active in the "gun culture" enthusiast community.
     
  9. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    You mean like Dylann Roof and the other white supremacists who have committed such acts? Or can't they be "real" "gun culture enthusiasts" much in the way that warmongering or homophobic Christians can't really be Christians?

    Do you think it is a coincidence that many of them have used assault weapons with large magazine capacities to more easily kill dozens of people before they can run away, the very same weapons much of the "gun culture" tries to continue to own with no restrictions at all?

    Isn't anybody who owns an assault weapon a "gun nut" by definition? What possible legitimate use is there to own one when there are far better firearms for any purpose other than to kill lots of humans in a very short period of time? How often is there any real need for this capability?

    How do you rationalize and defend that this "gun culture" is intentionally allowing so many untraceable firearms to be easily available for the commission of crimes? That their advocacy is directly contributing to such frequent mass killings?
     
  10. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Chieftain

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    How do you rationalize publishing the killers' names and pictures as an inspiration for future events? The news should be reported using anonymous and insulting terms ("the loser", etc) instead of names, and no pictures released. Ultimately the killer should be erased from history and buried at sea, but that might be asking too much.

    BTW, the worst school massacre in US history did not use guns.
     
  11. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    How do I "rationalize" basic information being disseminated by the media in a society which is supposed to value freedom of speech so much? Is that a serious question?

    The fact that explosives were used in the "worst school massacre in US history", back when explosives were vastly more easy to acquire than they are now, is supposed to somehow deflect criticism from the problem of firearms being used in nearly all these atrocities?
     
  12. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Chieftain

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    Yes it's a serious question, and you dismiss it. Just like I dismiss you questioning my right to the means of self-defense (a right also enshrined in the Constitution.)

    So we have nothing to talk about.
     
  13. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Censorship isn't an answer to anything other than how to best completely destroy any viable democracy.

    Do you consider the ban (or at least reasonable control as Canada has) of assault weapons with 30-shot magazines to be a violation of your supposed "rights" "enshrined in the Constitution"? if so, what "self-defense" do you contemplate justifies this need which directly endangers anybody living within a mile or so of your house?
     
  14. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    I would say that being part of "gun culture" at the very least means having an active passion for the hobby of studying, collecting and shooting firearms. In contrast to simply acquiring and possessing firearms to serve specific purpose (work, self-defense, hunting, crime, murder, etc) A few spree killers were gun enthusiasts, but most just seemed to want weapons with which to act out their plans.
     
  15. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    I see nothing wrong with being a gun enthusiast with the right attitudes. Many of them are quite responsible and store their collection so they cannot be misused or stolen. I could even see properly licensing them, as Canada does, to own assault weapons if they met the same requirements: To be members of a firing range where they can be fired safely, and the weapons must be regularly inspected to assure they are still owned without any illegal modifications and stored properly. In that benign form, it is an essentially harmless hobby just like most any other.

    Gun nuts are an entirely different matter. They typically own large armories for the day they will have to fight in the upcoming race war or to inevitably overthrow the wicked US government. They are frequently directly associated with white supremacist and survivalist groups. They frequently make illegal modifications to their firearms so they can be better used to kill humans.

    You also didn't respond to my direct question:

    Or do you claim that they don't have such beliefs in general? That they are vehemently opposed to the policies of the NRA and those of Republican congressmen to intentionally make it easy to acquire untraceable firearms? That they are already doing everything humanly possible to register all firearms, and to assure that they don't ever fall into the hands of those who want to use them for criminal activities? That their answer to just about any gun control issue is not to advocate that even more people have concealed weapons, even in "gun-free zones", while not advocating "stand your ground" laws to be able to kill others with even greater impunity?
     
  16. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    That's just it. It is easy to point out dangerous views held by a limited number of people on the fringe. However, merely because those outliers exist, it does not follow that they control or can dictate any sort of national legal policy. These nuts are radicals that lack enfranchisement (and appropriately so) in our national discourse.

    It is easy to rail against those marginal parties. I mean, these gun nuts are obviously nuts. They merit comment because of their radicalism, not because of their political power.

    People who think that these gun nuts control policy are merely inflating those nuts with clownishly imagined authority in order to fashion for themselves a political boogey-man they can rail against. However, by crafting this boogey-man they ignore the more critical, and more subtle, social forces that move public policy.

    In short, blaming a national policy on a few bunch of wackos is a simple answer for those who ask simple questions rather than a holistic basis for policy change.


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  17. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Chieftain

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    Sheriff John Hanlin refused to identify the shooter because he didn't want to give give him attention he didn't deserve. The media wouldn't have that, of course; they reported his name, citing unnamed law enforcement sources.

    He saw this as the only way he was ever going to get his picture on the cover of the Rolling Stone. Maybe he was crazy, but he wasn't stupid.
     
  18. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    I don't fancy or partake in any of those things. But back in the EEUU, I've kept stored a sizable personal collection of military rifles (including a few that you'd probably call an "assault weapon") which I've built up since I was in high school. I've been called a gun nut before so I wear it like a badge of honor.

    Well, I'm not sure how to answer it. What do you mean exactly by "untraceable" firearms and how/why are we trying to make them easier to get?
     
  19. amadeus

    amadeus めっちゃしんどい

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    Are you trying to turn it around on me? I'm not the one overreacting to this event. You seem to be the one who wants to use this as an opportunity to restrict gun ownership.
     
  20. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

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    I love how apparently calling for some sort of change to the status quo is "overreacting"

    "gun grabbers" lmao
     

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