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Master of Mana Xtended 5.0

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by Psychodad, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    I just started a game with Dural, here are my first impressions:

    - Adveturers: Dural get two Adventurers at researching Worrier Caste. Adventurers are IMO very OP. I got the Hero-Promotion for them within 2-3 combats so i could upgrade them in no time - if you get enough money (Dural get it through Grand Trading Center). Upgrade should also cost yield and be limited on Research. Maybe give the option to upgrade again to higher tier when you advance in research. Orc and goblin Adventurers are underpowered.

    - Rooster: The Dural Unit-Rooster seems a little sparse. They could use a simple archer and horseman, maybe unlocked at the first corresponding tech to compete with the other roosters.

    - Goody huts: The bonus differs very much in usefullness. You can get a 300 breakeker Tech :), 50-100 Gold :-/ or a map, some EXP :-(. I dont like that. If possible breakers should be reduced to the level of gold.

    - Monster lairs: Same for them.
    1. You can get few hundred yield (based an game advancement): usefullness depends on yield
    2. You can get equipment: healing salve :-(, mithral fullblade :)
    3. You can get (spell-)research: not sure about that.

    Maybe the quality of the equipment could be dependant on game advancement like the yield. Maybe an event could pop up were you can choose between two or three options (but reduce the numbers of the yield a little).

    -Same for goodys found when building improvements. In the beginning 340 Gold is huge. If possible it should scale with gameadvancement.

    - I really like most of the changes though! With each iteration the game feels more balanced, whitch makes different playstyles viable.
     
  2. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Thanks for the feedback!

    - Dural getting Adventurers upon researching Warrior Caste is an oversight. Will fix this on the next version.

    - Any thought on Dural unit roster and buildings, and their gameplay overall is welcomed! I have never played Dural before so I don't have good grasp on them.

    - I'll take a look on balancing rewards from goody hut and lairs. Healing Salve is great on high level unit without Second chance, though! :D
     
  3. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    bug: Endless waiting between Turns (freezing my whole System?!), caused by Lucian Coldiron. Deleting him in "World Builder" solves the issue. Save attached.

    Mod Folder: "E:\Spiele2\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Master of Mana"
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Warlord

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    There is a big bug : Ogrish in barbarian city multipliate as rabbit : I just saw a city with 67 ogrish inside lol...
     
  5. Ombatur

    Ombatur Chieftain

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    Hi,

    first of all, it's nice you're back esvath.

    So i tried out Dural with the new rooster mechanic, but i dont really get their concept. I have never tried them before, so it's not a problem with the unit rooster but with my own inexperience. But, as mentioned above, i felt like they needed some additional unit, which could maybe emphasize their flavor.

    I played as Aristarkh, too, since they are really unique and cool to play. They feel slower to get going than other civs though. So here are the things i noticed:
    - They have a hard time to get their research going. They have no sage district and therefore cant build a library as well. They need the tier3 research technology (i.e. philosophy iirc) to get the nexus, that boosts science. An idea would be, to move the nexus of knowledge to education or whatever the second tier research technology is called. This could however make them too powerful, since research tends to snowball out of control. I'm not expert enough to judge the impact, i just wanted to suggest this idea.
    - Why doesnt Hand of extortion (in the espionage tree) give +1 coin to restored defilers. It gives +1 coin to latent and awakend defiler and towns if you dont play as Aristarkh. Is this for balance reasons?
    - I dont seem to be able to build tomb lords after i unlocked the requiered reserach with death magic.
    - The Dracolich is a really cool looking unit. :)

    Also, the Aristarkh get adventures on researching Worrier Cast as well. So i guess all civs get them accidentaly on researching that technology.

    And I'm looking forward to play with the rooster units of Jotnar.
     
  6. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Warlord

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    Mod is very unbalanced, and Aristarkh are underpowered.

    For exemple : Magical guid is too powerfull, Khazad are very overpowered compared to others civs etc.

    I proposed in this sub forum some changes about Aristarkh, but it would need some works, and I think no one especially Evasth is motivated for this.
     
  7. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    A few thoughts on Dural playstyle:

    - Dural are very versatile an can adapt to many starting locations.

    - They have the Bards Corner (better Bard Distrikt), Grand Trading Centre (better Foreign Trade Distrikt) and a speciel +100% Research national wonder unlocked with philosophie. They can excel with every kind of city whitch is supported by their mainleader Dannmos Adaptive civic.

    - They can support aditional bards and sages because of their special buildings. Although you need high research output to profit from their many special buildings spread widely across the research tree. Philosophie is their most important technologie.

    - Their special courthouse lets them maintain more cities.

    - When you get them running they are the best builder civ IMO. They have affinity to culture vitory or domination by overall economic output.

    I never worked out their special religios features though, because i mostly priorize other guilds then prists (namely merchant, ranger, artisan).

    I just recogniced their special unit "professor" don't get str from military techs. Intended or oversight?
     
  8. alchemist_7387

    alchemist_7387 Chieftain

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    Hello, Esvath! Thank you for coming back to MoM development! It's an awesome mod! Probably the best I've ever played! :clap:

    I'm currently playing with the Frozen and can't execute the following rituals: Samhain, The White Hand and The Deepening. I also can't build Temples of The White Hand in my original cities. Thanks to that, I'm not able to create Taranis Ascended! :cry:

    Is this some kind of bug?

    Welcome back and thanks again! :goodjob:
     
  9. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    Why not doing it yourself? This Forum (civfanatics) is crowded with helpful modders who can give you hints and tips. I'm sure esvath would point you where to start, if you ask nicely.
     
  10. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Warlord

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    Why not doing myself ? Because I don't have any experience or motivation to do it.
     
  11. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    I have changed Lucian to avoid looping logic like what you might had.

    Hi, thanks for playing Xtended!

    To be honest, I also have not grasped the best flavour for Dural. I get it that they should be academics/builders but since they are not part of Kael's Erebus, I don't know much about them thus unable to build proper unique mechanics for them. The same with Aristarkh, Jotnar, Mazatl... So any suggestion on these civs are very much welcomed!

    (Scions, Austrin have more fleshed out lore thus make my job tinkering with them easier than those other civs).

    I am still unsure about this "professor". His name suggest an academic but his role is high tier military unit? I think I need to think more about him, and Dural in general, and will update them in future version.

    Hi! Thanks for playing Xtended.

    Frozen has so many bugs with the new system so I really do not recommend anyone to play it. As a matter of fact, I have this intention to cut Frozen from Xtended because there are so much to do to fix this civ and I am not sure that it would be worth the efforts.
     
  12. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    First and foremost, Xtended's primary focus is not on symmetrical balance. I want to build a mod with various asymmetrical balance, making each combination of civ/religion/magic/guild as different and interesting to play. This, of course, will lead to a more powerful combo (Bannor/Order/Life/Artisan guild comes to mind) or less powerful one (Amurites/Order/Nature/Esus, anyone?).

    With that in mind, I try to make soft or hard counter for most aspect of the game.

    You find that Magi Circle is too powerful? Well, some of their buildings cost gold maintenance per turn. No buildings from other guilds have this malus. If you like rushing with mana using Conjure Matter, ROK has better rush ratio with their Rush Production miracle. Further more, if you use mana to rush production, you lost that many mana for summon/enchantments/direct damage spells.

    Khazad is OP? Please elaborate on this and maybe I will nerf them some. Or, maybe you miss other civilisation's special aspect. I try to elaborate each civ's strength and weakness in my Quick Guide post. We can discuss more there.


    To be honest, what you have proposed requires too much work to do. Aristarkh is mostly python based and to work on that is just too tiring for me.
     
  13. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Warlord

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    Ok.

    If you agree with these problems, and if you could do something do solve them, it would be awesome.

    The main problems of MoM Xtended :

    1. Tech progression is too slow

    - Tech progression is far too slow. That is boring to play, especially in multiplayer where you don't have infinite time.

    Suggestion : Allow a game option to allow a +50 % science output for players who don't want to wait too much.
    Suggestion 2 (alternative) : Reduce the price of all the district by -50 %, to allow faster specialisation in science/gold/culture so then, in science.

    2. Spells are too strong especially in defense and especially against the non magic civs

    - Spells wipe out the ennemies armies. It's far too powerfull in defense especially, were you can use spell without using action point. We just did a game were I have a big dwarven army of 35 units, which has been easily exterminated by a small army of armurites with spellcaster inside. I could do nothing : having expansive metal units, having some units, did nothing.

    Suggestion : Thre should be anti magic equipement and promotion, and not only rituals and enchantements, because rituals need magical research, and you don't have to reserach spellreserach to counter magic (if you are dwarves or any non magical civ for exemple).

    3. Do not be able to equipe non leveled units is stupid and make having some ressources pretty useless in most cases

    - The impossibility to access to equipement if your unit has not the level 3 (or 4, I am not sure) make equipement useless in most of the case. So you can have situation were you have tons of metal / wood etc. but you cannot equipe your units. It's stupid and unlogical, anyone can use an armor or an axe, it's professional soldiers.

    Suggestion : Remove this limitation and autorise any unit to weak any equipement (I see no exploit possible because equipement is expansive, it's your choice if you expand ressources on weak units).

    4. Bad design of slaver guilde advantages in high level of guild specialisation

    - Slaver guild is bad designed. It give more and more unhappyness, but the benefit are low. It's better to just stay at level 1, with access to Slavery, but without the cumulative unhapyness.

    5. Civs should allow gold rush of buildings not only units

    - The civs which allow gold rush are bad, because you need rushing building, not units. You build units in a military center or at least a production city. Moreover there is no logic because you can use gold to "buy" your unit (is that a mercenary ?... no). But you cannot use gold to rush a building. Using gold for a unit sounds more like a mercenary system, which would feat more to slavers or the assassins guilde, but not Arete or Merchant House (more Merchant House, but it's not very usefull to be able to only rush units).

    6. Why Slaver guilde allow the usage of gold to rush buildings, whereas others guild or civics don't allow it ?

    - Slaver have access to Slavery. So, food -> population point -> production of buldings and units. Ok. But slaver guild open access to slave unit which you can buy, and use to rush buildings. So, in others term, it's like if you had access to slavery + gold rush of buildings (as Democraty in Civ IV vanilla give).

    - I am not againt the possiblity of Slaver guild to autorise gold rush of building, but I am against only them can do it, and not the others civics. Merchant House should do, as Profits. Maybe not Arete, if you consider that Arete is more a religious doctrine, so civs with Arete can count on Faith to rush buildings.

    7. There are weak civis which need a buff if not no one will never use them

    - There are civis which are weak and very rarely used. Before all, Profits. Having -20 % production for a so small bonus, it's so weak. It should be completely changed. Liberty civic is weak too, mainly due to the increase of maintenance. I think giving Liberty should not increase the maintenance cost, but decrease it would be more logical. Increasing the war unhappiness, or the military production would be more logical.

    - Benevolance and Harvesting are especially bad designed, pretty weak compared to others civs.
     
  14. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    I might take the second suggestion or maybe increase early-game science input from buildings if other players are sharing this opinion.

    • On which turn were you? Tier 1 spells are no longer capable of killing enemy units. Their damage is capped at (at most) 50%.
    • Tier 1 spells can only target 1-3 enemies, with Fireball has the highest number of target.
    • If your opponent was using Tier 2 or Tier 3, he had to use Mage or Archmage, which means he invested significant proportion of his research and arcane research to gain that kind of power. I see nothing wrong with that. If he spent such resources but get lousy spells, that would be unfair for him.
    • Spells cost mana and each civ can only hoard a certain amount of mana. That in itself is a limitation.
    There are various ways to reduce spell damages:
    • Khazad and Luchuirp can use Dwarven Coppercraft (unlocked at Weaponry) which gives the wearer +50% magic resistance.
    • Arcane units start with combat aura which gives magic resistance to allies. Strengthen this using level up promotions.
    • Combat IV and Combat V promotion give +5% magic resistance each.
    • If you take Defense or Divine discipline, you can get Elemental Resistance I. Divine discipline unlocks Elemental Resistance II.
    • Religions:
      • Runes of Kilmorph priest can take Rune of Warding, which will give allies +25% magic resistance.
      • Empyrean priest can take Armor of Dawn, which will reduce fire and unholy damage.
      • Ashen Veil priest starts with combat aura which increase magic resistance on allies.
      • Order has Shining Armor, which grants magic resistance.
    As I have said, Xtended's aim is asymmetrical balance. If your opponent goes magic heavy, there are ways to counter them. If your opponent has greater raw strength, you can use magic to weaken them.

    Preventing lower level units to use equipment is thematic. They are newbies, rookies, starters. The available resources should be used for more experienced units.

    However:
    • Play Bannor. Their units start with basic armor/weapon.
    • Use enchantments/buildings to give free xp to your units.
    • Sacrifice two units so the third one can kill enemy and gain xp. Promote this third unit to Offense -> Warlord, so he gains Second Chance and use him to bait other enemy, allowing the fourth rookie to kill the enemy and gain xp. Rinse and repeat.
     
  15. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    One of the benefit of Slavers Quarter is exactly as you have said:

    Because the benefit of gold rush (through buying slaves) is enermous, Slavers Quarter needs a big malus: civ-wide unhappiness.

    This is symmetrical balance: everyone can do everything, which is not Xtended's design philosophy.

    On their own, Profits, Benevolence and Harvesting might seem weak. But put in proper context, they have their own benefits.

    • Profits: +3 gold per city culture level. So if you have city with culture level 2 (100 culture), you will get +6 gold. Your starting city will always start with culture level 2, thus making you get +6 gold for -20% hammer. If you are Khazad, you will prefer gold over hammer, anyway, because you will have increased hammer from Dwarven Vault.
    • Liberty without malus will be OP. Unlimited number of specialists? Sidar will cry in joy and, despite lore, will always adopt Empyrean to get the civic. Increased maintenance is because the citizens starting to demand various facilities from the government. There is no war weariness in Xtended, so that idea is not going to work.
    • Benevolence is great for tall empire, like Kuriotates. Again, +1 health per city culture level. In Kuriotates' metropolises, that will be +4 to +8 health. Not to mention, when plague strike, you will be thankful for the health generated.
    Harvesting hmm might be better to increase the benefits to +3 leather/lumber/food? Anyone else has opinion on this?

    Merchant Houses' rushing gold for unit: thematically, it's like the Merchants are offering extra money so the soldiers are getting ready faster.
     
  16. Ombatur

    Ombatur Chieftain

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    I can confirm this. I can even top your number.^^ I had barbarian city with 500 ogres. I literally spend 15 min watching ogres run into my stack before i could start my turn. I turned on quick defence after this and probably saved myself an hour of watching ogres die.
     
  17. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Wow, that's 490 Ogres too many. At which turn was it?
     
  18. Ombatur

    Ombatur Chieftain

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    Ok, so here are my more or less qualified opinions:

    I personally dont feel that way. I play only singleplayer though, so my perspective is probably different than yours. I agree, that districts take some time to build in new cities, but they are also very powerful, so the amount of time feels justified.
    Suggestion 1 sounds good to me, but its probably not possible to implement easily.

    Here i have to agree. It's probably really difficult to balance though, because there is a big difference in use of magic in multiplayer and singleplayer, since the ai cant use magic properly. But even in singleplayer i feel feel bad for the ai, when im able to kill their big stack of units with some mages. However, im not sure wheter this problem is caused be the lack of counter to magic or be the inability of the ai to use the counters.
    In either case, i would like to suggest to reduce the amount of spell targets form sorcery promotion to 50% from 100% and maybe increase the spellresistance from wizard promotion form 10 to 20. The extra spelldamage from warlock promotion could also be decreased from 30 to 20 (or maybe 25?).
    It would also be cool, to have a promotion or item, which would allow the target to reflect some magic damage to the caster's stack, but i fear thats not easily possible.

    I dont agree here. It makes units feel more special, when they have to reach level 3 to be able to get equipped. That's at least how i feel.

    I partially agree here. I dont think, the guild is badly designed and some civs like Balseraph and maybe Aristarkh will find this guild useful. This guild just misses something powerful at the end of the tree. Maybe a building, that increases the amount of hammers you get for sacrificing your population by some percentage. Especially later in the game sacrifing pop for production is compared to the normal amount of production your city has not too usefull.

    I dont have a strong opinion here. I agree that rushing units is not too useful, but rushing buildings might be too good. I'm indecisive on that.

    I personally think the prices for selling and buying slaves should be doubled. This would make it more rewarding to capture slaves and increase the importance of later techs in the slave tree.

    I think profits can be quite useful in the early game. It's usually available early and the extra money can help you build the expensive improvements. Later in the game i dont often use it though.
    On this note, i find it weird, that there are only 4 lists of civics you can choose from. It feels always a bit empty to me and moving some lesser used civics to new lists would maybe make them more attractive.
     
  19. Ombatur

    Ombatur Chieftain

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    I think it was something like turn 490. Iiirc not all of the 500 units were ogres but something like 90% of the 500 units definitely were.

    Edit:
    I found the save, in case it helps. It turns out it was turn 478 and i was exaggerating. There were "only" 420 ogres.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  20. Ombatur

    Ombatur Chieftain

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    One thing, that would improve Aristarkh a bit and could be done easily, is move unlocking the nexus of knowledge from philosophy to the the tech before that(cant remember the name). Aristarkh need a lot of research to get to their powerful units and the only way for them to get a good amount of science is through philosophy, since they cant build a science district or library. However, philosophy is a late game tech as well, so they are stuck with very low research for a good part of the game.
     

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