Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0

[Drift]

@n12m13

- Like mrtn said, the barbarians are weak because of your low difficulty setting.
- I could of course give Dark Tower a prerequisite tech, but why?
- Tech tree stays as it is. It's one of the unique things in the mod and I like the freshness of it when compared to the traditional, more interweaved tech tree. It's not something for every mod, but I view it as a strength, not a weakness. Why should first era be over after three techs in each branch?

@BradRinWi

I'll have to be careful with the unit boosting though. After all, majority of players don't play Emperor or demigod. Balance at all levels is naturally more important than tech development incentives at high levels. The latter is a nuisance, the former a game ruining element.

I do have a vision and I can be hard to sway. However, during the development of 1.0 quite a few suggestions from testers made it to the final product. I guess things are more set in stone now, even though I am still willing to listen. Back then I was also willing to listen, but also willing to rip things apart and build then differently just to get some cool thing in the mod.

Mod development just has to be either centralized or a team effort with clear division of responsibilities. MoM is being run by me and I can't take everyone's advice. There has been only instance when I was ready to share power. During late summer I felt like I had lost my inspiration with MoM and needed something to spark up the project, so I offered embryodead co-working with the mod, but like I expected, he was too busy. Results would've probably been interesting.

 

[Drift]

Master of Myrror 2.0 Beta 2 (1.5MB)

• Before installing, make sure you have Master of Myrror 2.0 Beta1 installed.
• Extract to Civ3\Conquests\Scenarios\. Overwrite existing files.

Master of Myrror 2.0 Beta 2 - Patch 3 (0.4MB)

• Before installing, make sure you have Master of Myrror 2.0 Beta2 installed.
• Extract to Civ3\Conquests\Scenarios\. Overwrite existing files.

Changelist Beta2:
- return to 1.0 unit stats with some tweaking. Generally low level units remained as they were in 1.0 but high-end units got a slight stat lift. This should reward lategame tech research with more powerful units. Some unit prices were also tweaked (usually downwards) to better represent unit's strenght.
- trait system redone. Each mage has three traits. Formula is as follows:
"Mage's faction's own trait + Mage's secondary faction's trait + one of the four traits that don't belong to any faction." Those mages that are purely one type of magic get two additional traits in addition to their faction's own trait. This is the only way secondary magic is included in the mod.
- Some traits were also given better names.
- Civilopedia polished a little.
- Some minor bugfixes.
- Some small balancing. Granaries aren't half-price for agricultural mages. Drake Mastery produces Doom Drakes at correct pace. Maulers come at Chaos XI instead of Chaos X...

Changelist Beta2 - Patch 2
- Artillery's stats were fixed (this is identical with the earlier mini patch).
- Dragon Shrines were given wonder splashes so they don't crash the game.
- Artillery costs were fixed and their pedia entries were made clearer.

Now that the unit stats are back to normal, there is less urgent stuff to test. Naturally other additions need testing as well, but the biggest obstacle between the mod and ultimate balance has been removed.

Now I'll probably take it easier with the mod for a while. The addition of four new resources is still on paper, but it's going to take a while before I come close to having most of the units. In the meanwhile, keep playing and reporting what you think of things. Naturally there are less to report with the old stats making their comeback, but I will be reading and acting on feedback if it requires my immediate attention. My plan is however to focus on Mr. Henry Kissinger and his actions with Argentina in 1976 for a while.

 

[Lusikka755]

@Lusikka755

Thanks for the feedback. Some initial thoughts:
1. Are unique units mage-specific? Do they replace regular units?
2. Great Eagle and Black Ark are in the mod. Eagle is a Nature Mage aerial transport and Black Ark is a Death Mage late-game naval transport.
3. Original spider isn't in the game any more and Hellspawn blends in with other units reasonably. Aaglo's old giants don't blend in and they don't look very good. Mrtn's Nazgul is IMO simply too black. Sorry. (edit: now that I think of it, Nazgul does fill the graphical requirements of the mod. It's more of a case whether it's needed.)
4. I'll consider the other suggested units and/or their stats.
5. What would secondary magic do? Would it give the mage access to the units of his secondary magic type or what?
6. I honestly feel the improvements, wonders and race techs are enough of an incentive to research the other branches.

1. No and no. They would be extra units in addition to mage's own units.
2. Then use the other possibilities. I haven't played death mages that much Isn't there many sizes of great eagles in WH2?
3. Well, I wouldn't complain about aaglo's giants... Any chance have aaglo to remake them?
4. Good!
5. Exactly, but those units wouldn't be available to those who have that magic as primary magic. Only for the secondary. But it could also be access to some of the units the mages on the other magic type already have.
6. But there are some techs that have one wonder that is no use. I have put them in those techs by the most part.

@mrtn: That's what I said. Drift should consider the names himself 'cause I don't know anything about MoM.

It seems I'm in the minority though...

 

[Drift]

@Lusikka755
1. With units that don't replace any other units, comes the problem of upgrading. I don't like units that don't upgrade (and it shows in MoM). I should play WH2 more and see how the stricter upgrading embryodead favors works in practice.
2. I don't know exactly. MoM already uses two sizes of the eagle. Smaller one is the nature mage hawk.
3. I don't want to sideline aaglo from his current hobgoblins and chaos dwarves.
5. I see. Very similar to what I thought of when considering the secondary magic units. I will think about it, but I can't help feeling that it's a tad cumbersome and hard to balance...
6. No use wonders? I know there are less useful wonders in there, but I've considered all of them worth building in certain situations. Besides, regular Civ3 has techs with no benefits at all and numerous techs with nothing but a single wonder. I won't cram the tech tree full just for the sake of it. It has a reasonable amount of stuff already.

I'll consider your suggestions, but at the moment I can't promise they make it to the mod. I'm sorry about that, but I need to stick to my own plans when I feel they are closer to what I envision to be best for the mod. Naturally, feedback can change things - for example, if I get a lot of requests to include secondary magic in a more drastic form, I'm more inclined to follow the feedback and include it.

 

[Lusikka755]

@Drift:
1. If you don't like that maybe the first of the two units could upgrade always to the second one. Then we'd have to put the ships off though.
2. I thought there were three.
6. No use wonder is especially that wonder that requires both chaos and nature nodes within city radius. That never happens. Same with the vanilla Civ3 Iron Works. About Civ3 having "useless" techs; yes it does and I don't like it. That's why I don't play it very much anymore and have modded it quite a bit. If there is a "mistake" in regular game it doesn't mean it should also be in the mods

Anyway it's up to you if you add the secondary magic or not. But if somebody else likes my idea, please say that. I would still like to emphasize that it would make every mage genuinely different. I think two same type of mages are too much the same. Just like in regular Civ 3 all civs are.

I like your other plans though. The additional race resources sound great.

BTW, I have noticed you haven't added my building graphics in the latest patch yet. Have you forgot them or cancelled them?

 

[Warriori]

I have played both Master or Myrror and Warhammer Mods for some time now and i wonder why the 'wheeled' units are not used in MOM? At least in WH mod the inability of standard units to use mountains made fortresses finally an usable option rather than nuissance. Atleast when playing standard Conquest without any mods the fortress option was almost totally useless.

 

[Drift]

@Lusikka755

I'll keep those suggestions in mind. I don't like 'useless' techs as well, but I think additional wonders or stuff like that is more suitable filling material than new units. New units should be added for different reasons (although filling for tech tree can be a partial reason).

I can also try to think up some ideas of my own for differentiating the mages more. Can't promise that I'll come up with something intelligent, but I can always try.

Your buildings are still on the list. I haven't forgotten them, but I have forgotten to include them in a patch with all these other troubles taking up the spotlight. I'll get to them at some point, but them being just graphical updates, it's not as urgent as the things I've done so far.

@Warriori

Welcome to CFC.

Wheeled units, hmm. Artillery is wheeled in MoM, but you're probably talking about extending wheeled tag to units like cavalry.

My own opinion about impassable mountains and extensive use of wheeled units is that the sum of their plusses and minuses is roughly zero. Yes, it does add variety as mountains create natural barriers and different units are required for different terrain, but it also creates frustrating situations and trouble for AI. I've never gotten excited enough of the idea to consider including it in MoM.

 

[BradRinWi]

I like beta 2.02 very much and i can understand being careful about boosting

I believe most ppl probably dont play at demigod or emporer lvl but some do..
and a well balanced Mod remains so throughout any difficulty lvl..

I am bugged by the no unit icons on the tech tree except for life..

but thats a minour graphical thing...

I still need to play nature and chaos .. to fully form an opinion
so far seems nice im a bit perplexed why shadow demon death 15 is less powerful than arch demon .. chaos 15..death seems kinda weak.. but i havent played them fully yet.. just starting so maybe it all balances into 2nd and 3rd era..

 

[Drift]

@BradRinWi

Achieving good balance for all difficulty levels would probably require removal of certain features. I'm not going to go there. What I'm looking for is good balance for lower difficulty leveles and reasonable balance for the high-end.

I can't do anything about the other branches not having unit icons. They are units the player can't use (as they belong to other mages) so their icons will be automatically hidden.

Units of the different mages have varying strengths. That's what makes the mod interesting. The point isn't that all mages have equally strong or even identical units at all times, but that the units of the different mages would differ. Shadow Demons are weaker than Archdemons because that's the way I want it to be.

Besides, I'd say Shadow Demons are a tough enemy even for the Archdemon. They are cheaper, create Wraiths out of defeated enemies and have strong enough an attack to beat an Archdemon. Also, Archdemons are meant to be one of the über units of the mod.

Death mage units don't often have as good offensive stats as the other mages, but their defense is among the best, units are generally cheap, they can support the largest armies, most units create new ones out of defeated enemies and they aren't really that far behind the other mages when it comes to offensive. Also, they have really strong navy and a pretty good government.

 

[Dragonlord]

Got the new patch and started the first game as the new Chaos mage, Unger, on DemiGod. I'm having a tough time keeping up in tech and have to pay tribute regularly while I build my army, but that's as it should be at this level. Seems balanced enough up till now... I'll see how it goes.

I like the new trait system and the UUs (though I haven't seen them yet in my game

Just one thing: what did you do to the bombardment units?!? A fire catapult now has only 4 rather than 6 in 1.0... and it says in the pedia that a regular catapult has only 2!!!! bombardment! Who would ever build that? Totally useless...

I'd strongly recommend going back to 4 - 6 - 8 for catapult - fire cat - trebuchet.

 

[Drift]

Ah yes, the bombardment units. I had forgotten about the changes I made to them. What I was trying to do was lessen the strenght of chaos artillery as the AI doesn't really know how to use it so the benefit is mostly for the player...

*checks unit stats from regular Civ3*

well, it seems that I remembered the regular game stats wrong, catapult doesn't have bombardment of 2. I'll go back to 4-6-8-12. Sorry about the hassle.

edit: this problem has been fixed in Beta 2 - Patch 1.

 

[Dragonlord]

Here's a mini patch with just the new artillery stats:

Thank you, that's what I call good support!
Firaxis, take note....

 

[BradRinWi]

no prblem drift . I had only just started my death mage game so i was just giving first impression Life i have plaYED EXTENSIVELY i like

nature chaos and death im just starting to get into mid game...

looks good so far..

just played death thru your right defense and navy make up for any lacks..



thanks for the artilery fix

 

[Antipaeter]

I got the Following Error Message while playing, think I was just about to build the Dragon Shrine as a life Mage.

Missing Entry in "Scenarios\MoM\text\Pedialcons.txt":
WON_SPLASH_DRAGON_Shrine_Life

Sorry if I am posting a prior problems but with 50+ pages its to much to go back and read them!

BTW Thanks for the hard work, I have been haveing alot of fun with this!

 

[BradRinWi]

btw re units not visible on tech tree

youre right..hmm never payed attention to it before cause i usually play life...


thats actually a neat idea Not showing units on tech tree that cant be built..by the player unless you.. explore the tree itself

 

[Drift]

@Antipaeter

Thank you for the bug report and welcome to CFC. I can't believe what I've been thinking when I forgot to add wonder splashes for all dragon shrines. Meaning that every one of the dragon shrines causes the game to crash. Don't build 'em with current versions.

Oh well, I better get to work with this - patch to follow later today.

@BradRinWi

That's how the basic Civ3 also works. You don't see the UU's of other civilizations in the tech tree because you can't build them.

 

[Drift]

Master of Myrror 2.0 Beta 2 - Patch 3 (0.4MB)

• Before installing, make sure you have Master of Myrror 2.0 Beta2 installed.
• Extract to Civ3\Conquests\Scenarios\. Overwrite existing files.

Changelist:
- Artillery's stats were fixed (this is identical with the earlier mini patch).
- Dragon Shrines were given wonder splashes so they don't crash the game.
- Artillery costs were fixed and their pedia entries made clearer.

To get the new artillery stats you need to start a new game, but the dragon shrine problem should be fixed for your existing savegames as well.

 

[BradRinWi]

@BradRinWi

That's how the basic Civ3 also works. You don't see the UU's of other civilizations in the tech tree because you can't build them.[/QUOTE]


you know its funny but since i had been such a huge supporter of the orignal CiV and played it to excess I never got into civ 2 et al..
when i found civ 3 and had enough time I installed it and the same night Put warhammer and Mom on and never actually ran a Normal Civ scenario..
LOl

 

[BradRinWi]

btw just finished a Vlad game the civ entry for vampire lords says stronger and faster than normal vamps But .. the only difference is a 2 move instead of one...

did you forget to boost when going back to more familar stat system??
or did you forget to edit the civ pedia entry ..??
just curious

 

[Drift]

@BradRinWi

Forgot to edit the pedia.

Thanks for reminding me. I'll have to check for similar mistakes with the other unique unit pedia entries.