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Masters and Apprentices: A King Level Succession Game

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Stories & Tales' started by Prof. Garfield, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. Giftless

    Giftless Warlord

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    You know, it's crazy seeing how this succession game unfolds versus another one on Deity I'm currently playing. At around 460 AD I had a similar number of cities and techs (only with Invention, Democracy + Leonardo's workshop built) though right here I see the jump ahead with the celebrations and caravan values.

    It makes for an interesting little micromanagement puzzle, in Monarchy the caravans might be made faster in the early game, but they're not worth as much for trading purposes. Anyhow, now that I'm in Communism maybe it's time to find all the gold and wine resources on the map ;)
     
  2. Blasph23

    Blasph23 Terraformation Junkie

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    I'll play my turns sometime in this week.
     
  3. Blasph23

    Blasph23 Terraformation Junkie

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    (0) 360: Republic given to Egyptians, some rush buying, mostly vans and market in Minsk. Yakutsk beads van to Avignon for 288g.

    (1) 370: French dev Wheel. Sanitation discovered -> Theology. Minsk builds market and celebrates, hopefully till size 12. Riga cloth van. St.Pete van - coal and salt not demanded, cloth only in Elephantine but I already have it so I built food van. Magnitogorsk beads. A hut at (119, 35) is popped with one of the settlers and I got another settler (NONE) which will go back to improve mainland. Also, a city will be built there (118, 34) to benefit from both fish specials. Rush buying till gold is down to 693.

    (2) 380: Sioux are now a republic. Uralsk hides, Tblisi silk, Moscow hides, Vitebsk found (shares island with Vologda). Some incremental RBuying of vans.

    (3) 390: Persians dev Poly, Sioux dev Math. I rushed Sewer System in Minsk to let it grow and start building more wonders. Also Minsk stoped celebrating, I had to change workers from mine to ocean (for the time being) to make it celebrate again. I will start building King Richard's Crusade in Minsk, which may well be changed into something else, but I consider it a very useful wonder. Rostov beads, there were gems available but only internal demand.

    (4) 400: Egyptians rebel, no new government yet. Minsk celebrates again. Kiev food van due to no demand for other commodities. Persians should soon dev bridge building so we can trade for it. Some RBuying again, gold down to 212.

    (5) 410: Egyptians are now a republic. Kharkov can only produce beads (no other choice, few cities demand and there are already several vans with this) so I choose food instead. Same for Sevastopol (only non demanded salt). Smolensk silver. Aqueducts, Harbors and Markets built in a couple of cities. Tblisi Wine to Avignon = 380g. 6 vans injected to help build King Richard's. Moscow switched to build trireme that will support southern trade. Rush buying where applicable - gold down to 238, theology next turn. I have looked around the map and there is an undiscovered special near Riga on shieldless grass (125, 69), will build forest there to reap the rewards. Barbarian leader captured with a trireme (became vet in the process) on Egyptain land after they defeated the barb legions, free 150g. Heliopolis now demands our silk which will be delivered next turn to get the beakers (science bar full at the moment). St. Pete starts gathering shields for Bach's.

    (6) 420: Egyptians dev medicine, Zulus aquire it via GL. We discover Theology -> Theory of Gravity next. Kuibyshev spice (demanded in Paris). Yakutsk silk to Heliopolis for 528g. 1k+ gold in treasury, lets spend some of it :D Result? 155 left.

    (7) 430: French acquire engineering -> Zulus as well from GL. Kazan Dye. Minsk build KRC -> shield output spirals to 20 net. Next in the line is courthouse. Both non demanded vans in St. Pete used to help build wonder. Non demanded salt from Astrakhan to Memphis = 160g. Kiev hides to Little Bighorn = 488g. Next hide van will wait a turn since science bar is full. Hostile Sioux demand 50g, given. 880g in treasury left for some rush buying. Down to 435. Since our science bar is full, I exchanged techs with French - their banking for our philosophy. Peace signed.

    (8) 440: ToG discovered -> Economy. I'm not sure this is the right choice but building Adam's would pay for all our maintenance costs of temples, markets, harbors, future courthouses... other choices are Nav, BB, Chem. Kursk beads, Yakutsk wine, Sevastopol food, Smolensk food. Batum found (116, 72). Moscow hides to Lil Bighorn = 384g. Gold 945, after RBuying = 79. Lux set to 50%, several cities will celebrate and grow but not as many as I'd like.

    (9) 450: Not much happened. Some movement and relocation of triremes and vans, several improvements built. Bach was rushed 120g to be built next turn and coincide with WLTCD growth to push more cities into it.

    (10) 460: Persians and Zulus trade techs - Philosophy for Construction, then sign a peace treaty.

    Tips for the next player:

    - Novogrod needs Aqueduct for further growth, I suggest building one right after rushing that van.

    - I have rearranged many workers in several cities so that they would celebrate, keep that in mind since the production suffered.

    - Minsk is now size 13 and is not going to stop there, I suggest to continue rushing courthouse and bank, then build Isaac and Shake followed by library and uni so that our SSC will finally take shape.

    - After Bach was build you might want to lower luxury, we don't need as much any more, and science might suffer a bit if this is left unchanged.

    - Personally, I'd build more settlers to improve more land, but perhaps that will come with time when we get invention, build Leo and have them changed to engineers.

    - Last thing but no less important: French now only have Contact with us, peace expired so it's best to talk to them or risk losing triremes carrying our vans when they sneak attack us.
     

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  4. caesar007

    caesar007 Chieftain

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    Will probably do my turns tonight
     
  5. caesar007

    caesar007 Chieftain

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    460 AD : renewed peace treaty with the French, Rbed van in Novgorod for 25g,

    lowered luxury to 30/ science to 50/ taxes 20

    480 AD : French acquire bridge building, hides delivered to Chartres for 296g,

    490 AD : French gov overthrown, french sneak attack us destroy one of our trirems and we are at war with them and they do not want to talk to us, we are most advanced civ (zulus 2, french 3, sioux4 …), we discover economics, researching invention now, minks builds courthouse and celebrates .. bank is next, Moscow celebrates as well, Persian cata was near one of our cities so I talked to them and they have withdrawn the unit,

    500 AD : French become monarchy, Persians acquire bridge building .. zulus get it through GL,

    510 AD : Egypts disc banking, Minsk builds bank, silk van delivered to the french for 360g,

    520 AD : invention discovered and started researching democracy

    530 AD : Sioux and Persians sign peace treaty, another attack on a trireme by the french (next player will need to deal with this somehow … ), Persians again … another cata near one of our cities but they have withdrawn it again when I asked for it (something we might have to deal with at some point as well … )

    540 AD : several vans delivered for total of about 500g

    550 AD : democracy discovered and now researching navigation, lost 2 vans because of the evil French :p ,

    560 AD : Rbed Isaac for 580g (so it will be built next turn)


    Some things to consider and some things to do :

    1) We are stil at war with the French … so delivering vans to them is not going to be easy and not sure how the next player wants to deal with that (btw wouldn’t mind some advice on how to deal with this .. normally speaking I would make military units now and go attack them, but since we are building a trade empire .. not sure what to do )
    2) Built settler in Grozny .. would suggest to build a city (81,75)
    3) Built settler in Magnitogorsk .. would build roads and irrigation first, but then maybe build a city on one of the Islands eithet near Sioux or the one with the whale and forest near Egypt
    4) Isaac will be finished on the very next turn … build shake after that and then lib and uni in Minsk
    5) Minsk is still celebrating at 21 now
    6) Look for a place to build Leo
    7) Vans near Minsk for next wonder (shake)
    8) Possible future problem with the Persians …
    We have 11 million citizens now and 913g left
     

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  6. caesar007

    caesar007 Chieftain

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    Oh yeah we have democracy now ... not sure if we want to change to that already or wait a bit ? Anyway another thing to consider for the next player :)
     
  7. Giftless

    Giftless Warlord

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    End of 560 AD

    - Rush purchased Gem caravan at Vladivostok, destination will be either Arbela or Susa (which are surely larger than they appear), switched production to Sewer System.

    - Rush purchased Harbor in Murmansk, switching to Settler.

    - Not sure why we have an Aqueduct building in Uralsk, I'm going to Rush it though and switch to a spice Caravan.

    570 AD

    - Isaac Newton's online, Library next in queue.
    - Sending Settler to (81, 75) to establish inland sea port for Bead Caravan.
    - Rush purchased a library in Moscow--going to switch to Adam Smith's next turn. It seems like a good spot to work on a Wonder since the population won't change any time soon. I see Minsk has excellent production but I'm a little leery of putting all our Wonders in one city.

    580 AD

    - Zulus build the Great Wall, Egyptians change projects to Shakespeare's Theater
    - French change back to Republic

    590 AD

    - Obtained Navigation; the techs aren't thrilling at the moment so I'm taking Chemistry for the Engineers / Combustion longview. I figure if I took Gunpowder now, it would introduce more techs and the Chemistry branch might go into hiding.
    - Riga Cloth Caravan delivered to Memphis for 62 gold (Beads were no longer demanded). Memphis also went into disorder for our benefit (ha), so we're going to try Heliopolis next.

    600 AD

    - Zulus are undertaking Shakespeare's Theater.
    - Library built in Minsk, changing to Magellan's Expedition for now.
    - Holding off on (81, 75) construction, a killer Zulu caravan is right next to us.
    - Magnitogorsk caravan delivery for 48 gold; we're going to need Obamacare soon because this is a recession.

    610 AD

    - French develop Monotheism (Crusaders), Zulu's get it as well from the Great Library.
    - Uralsk celebrates in a desperate attempt to make use of that Aqueduct some day.
    - Russian scientists discover Chemistry, we're selecting Gunpowder now
    - Gold delivered from Kiev to Minsk, 96 gold
    - Built Tiflis at (81, 75)
    - Possible Oedo year next turn? DECLARING REVOLUTION

    630 AD

    - Zulus abandon Shakespeare's Theatre
    - Switched to Monarchy, gifted Egyptians Sanitation and University and demanded tribute: 250 gold
    - Gifted Greeks Philosophy, demanded 150 gold
    - Paid French 50 in tribute, re-established Peace. Then gifted them Sanitation and exchanged world maps.
    - Switched government to Democracy. Our corruption problem is now a thing of the past.

    650 AD

    - Delivered Sverdlovsk Wine to Rheims, 156 Gold.

    660 AD

    - Discovered Gunpowder, next up is Explosives.
    - Delivered Riga Coal to Little Bighorn, 116 Gold.
    - Novgorod Wine delivered to Wounded Knee, 245 Gold.
    - Vladivostok Gems delivered to Arbela, 171 Gold.

    Some final notes:

    - The Sverlovsk Gem caravan has a good internal destination at Magnitogorsk
    - You may want to send one of the Spice Caravans to Yakutsk to keep it celebrating
    - I'm thinking Minsk should finish Magellan's and then go for Leonardo; Shakespeare doesn't seem that useful when we have no wars at present.
    - Maybe keep some cash on hand for rushing Sewer systems, a couple of the cities are getting close to 12 population.
     

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  8. Blasph23

    Blasph23 Terraformation Junkie

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    I had an idea to build SSC wonders in Minsk but if you think the production could be used for more wonders then I guess why not? I also don't prefer to build all wonders in one city.

    Shake's was generally meant to be build in Minsk so that we could rehome all of our triremes there and face no unhappiness under democracy, as well as relieve other cities which have significantly lower production capabilities.

    At that point Minsk would produce more triremes/caravels continuously to establish the farthest ship chain possible for extensive trade.

    With cities around population ~12, there should be no problems with building enough useless vans to help build wonders elsewhere.
     
  9. Giftless

    Giftless Warlord

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    What you're saying about Shakespeare makes sense, though as a counter-argument I noticed some of the cities were able to keep celebrating with the unhappiness caused by ships, also with higher movement ship chains would not have to be as large. Some other factors were at play during my session as well, for a time I thought we might lose Shakespeare to an A.I. construction and on top of that the enemy civs seemed very eager to acquire Navigation or Invention whenever I negotiated with them. The current difficulty is that the enemy civs can't be placated with either of these, since two or three civs have been storing up shields for wonders and there's the Great Library working against us. That's another reason I was inclined towards Magellan--so that tech gifting would be less dangerous on the diplomacy screen.
     
  10. Blasph23

    Blasph23 Terraformation Junkie

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    We could try the trick with lowering science rate to zero in hopes that the AI will match our settings, as they often do. That way we could rush vans, build wonders and only then trade techs. On the other hand I don't think we need to trade techs at all at this point. Still, AI may develop Inv and Nav on their own which pretty much means the same thing.
     
  11. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Goals for this set of turns:
    1. Shipchain to Heliopolis and Memphis.
    2. Leo's and then Magnetism for happy ships.

    (0) 660: Spend treasury down to 147 gold.

    (1) 670: Zulus develop Economics, and begin Shakespeare's Theatre. Explosives, begin Physics. Change production in Moscow to Leo's Workshop. 2 caravans into Moscow to help with Leo's. Move Moscow production to Ocean from Oil, since I plan to finish Leo's before it could add another 45 shields through production.

    (2) 680: French develop invention, and Zulus get it from GL; French begin Leo's. Egyptians nearly complete Shakespeare's Theatre. Minsk completes Magellan's Expedition. Begins University. Taxes to 50% for some extra cash.

    (3) 690: Egyptians build Shakespeare's Theatre in Heliopolis. Zulus change to Leo's. 2 more caravans into Moscow. Science back up to 50%.

    (4) 700: Physics, begin Magnetism. Trireme kills barb leader in Siouxland for 150 gold. Last 3 caravans into Moscow.

    (5) 710: Minsk University. Moscow builds Leonardo's Workshop; Zulus change to Adam Smith.

    (6) 720: Magnetism, begin Metallurgy. Use shipchain for the first time. Tblisi dye (d) to Heliopolis for 248 gold. St. Petersburg cloth (nd) to Heliopolis for 136 gold. Smolensk coal (nd) to Heliopolis for 92 gold. Somewhat disappointing deliveries. Will send along an engineer to road the land near the city. Get bridge building from French in exchange for Navigation. Kuibyshev spice (d) to Chartres for 324 gold.

    (7) 730: Sioux land beside Astrakhan. Metallurgy, begin Electricity. Re-establish peace with the Sioux. Give the Egyptians Invention, Astronomy, Iron Working, Navigation, Bridge Building, The Wheel, Physics, and, finally, Democracy. Kiev wine (d) to Heliopolis for 320 gold. Hut: 50 gold.

    (8) 740: Egyptians begin Statue of Liberty. Electricity, begin Steam Engine. Give Sioux Gunpowder, Navigation, Invention, Writing, Physics, Engineering, Metallurgy, Explosives, Democracy, Monotheism, and, finally, Medicine. I am attempting to get them to research leadership, so we can skip chivalry. They are worshipful, but declare war when I insist they withdraw their catapult. Kill catapult outside Astrakhan. Build Bryansk. Raised taxes to 60% so that I'll have enough to rush Adam Smith's if necessary.

    (9) 750: Zulus change to Democracy. French develop Democracy, begin SOL. Barbs suddenly appear at Minsk and attack the city. I didn't know a ship could appear that close to developed land. Make peace with Sioux. They are researching Chemistry, but I don't want to give them Magnetism or Electricity to attack our ships with. Moscow Gems (d) to Heliopolis for 324 gold. Smolensk cloth (nd) to Heliopolis for 102 gold. Kursk wine (d) to Heliopolis for 290 gold.

    (10) 760: Persian caravan arrives in Sevastopol. Land barbs appear near Bryansk. Minsk gold (nd) to Heliopolis for 330 gold.

    Notes:

    Barbs will take (and probably raze) Bryansk next turn. If the city is captured, you should bribe it back.

    The Zulus are working on Adam Smith's. There is over 1600 gold in the treasury if the Zulus get close to finishing before you can amass enough caravans. I personally don't place much value on Adam Smith's company, but if you want it, you will be able to get it.

    I have completed a round trip shipchain to Heliopolis. The payouts haven't been that great, so I've sent an engineer to road the grassland around the city. He's currently on a ship ready to be dropped off north of the city.

    I've started a shipchain to France that the next player should complete; it is likely that Rheims and Lyons will be better destinations for cities like Magnitogorsk than Heliopolis. Remember, you want to send caravans to different landmasses, and to cities as far away as is practical.

    I've tried to direct the Sioux into researching Leadership, so that we can skip chivalry and maintain the horseman in the build orders. Unfortunately, when I tried to give them Chemistry, they wanted Electricity and Magnetism, which would allow them to build ships to attack us with.

    I've left all rushbuying to the next player.
     

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  12. Blasph23

    Blasph23 Terraformation Junkie

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    General plan for my turns:
    - Get an engineer or even two to France in anticipation of railroad, so that once our vans land, they can deliver to multiple cities in one turn. Maybe a colony could be established for that purpose too, which would allow us to retain van movement on the very turn they are produced and delivered.
    - Get an extensive railroad network within our own empire for quick van relocation where necessary and obvious bonuses to production. Also railroads will be useful to mitigate potential Persian threat - year 1000 AD is coming and all civs will experience a sudden drop of attitude towards us (as if it wasn't already low, but...) and will be more likely to attack.
    - I'm tempted to transform terrain from plains to grassland at least on the tiles where cities stand (Moscow, Smolensk, Sevastopol etc.) so they can grow a little. With just one such transformation, Moscow can celebrate-grow to size 16 once all plains around it are irrigated.
    - I will build more engineers to improve more land.
    - Darwin's Voyage will increase our tech lead even further, I'm thinking of taking conscription then industrialization - there's a bunch of useless techs along the way and I'm not sure what will/won't be available. With Ind our KRC stops working of course but it did its job anyway.
    - I see Tiflis established in the choke point to the west. Personally, I'd stop building new cities and focus on developing existing ones so I won't pay any attention to colonization, save for 1-2 cities between the main part of of our continent and Grozny area.
     
  13. Blasph23

    Blasph23 Terraformation Junkie

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    (0) 760: Gold down to 2k via rush buying.

    (1) 770: Barbs capture Bryansk (not razed), Greeks dev Monarchy. We discover Steam Engine -> Railroad. I will build a diplomat in Vitebsk to recapture Bryansk and maybe the elephants which will subsequently capture barb leader. Uralsk spice (d) to Arbela = 240g. Sevastopol cloth to Helio = 112g. Gold = 3k, after some rush buying – 2k.

    (2) 780: Yakutsk gems (d) to Giza = 534g, Kiev cloth to Giza = 134g. Should be enough to develop RR. I started Adam’s in Kiev, with few helping vans the next turn and now I RBed it for 720g. Another rush buying session –
    gold down to 1,4k.

    (3) 790: Railroad discovered -> Conscription. Kiev builds Adam’s -> Darwin’s. Many vans are built, almost none with demanded commodities anywhere except our own civ (to a very small degree). Kazan silk (d) to Rouen = 116g. Novogrod Gems (d) to Heliopolis = 250g. Bryansk purchased for 26g. Rostov wine (d) to Helipolis = 374g.

    (4) 800: Sioux start building SoL. Barb elephant fails to destroy our engineer. Moscow gold to Helio = 84g. Grozny beads to Giza = 79g. Kharkov spice (d) to Lions = 240g. Conscription science bar full. 3k gold in treasury. We are now producing lots of food vans so from now on I will only RBuy non-food vans. RBuying depleted gold to 1,7k.

    (5) 810: Persians dev navigation. We discover conscription -> next choices are: Atomic Theory, Fundy, Refrigeration and Industry. I picked the latter. All muskets upgraded to riflemen. Vladivostok gold to Lyons = 76g. Sverdlovsk gems (d) to Memphis = 376g. Sevastopol beads to Memphis = 86g. We really are out of commodities. Most cities can only produce food vans now. Anything else they supply is not demanded anyway. Hopefully discovering industrialization will shift supply and demand lists a bit.

    (6) 820: Epic History: Russians are the most powerful (unsurprisingly) followed by French, Zulus, Persians, Egyptians, Sioux and Greeks. Polution near Minsk. Moscow cloth to Memphis = 86g. Tbilisi gold to Memphis = 90g. St. Pete coal to Helio = 102g. Minsk cloth to Rouen = 96g. Vladivostok salt to Rouen = 60g. Crusaders encounter stacked barb units near Bryansk and destroy them. Some RBuying, including several vans from scratch since we have all the gold in the world. I think I know why there is no demand for all those gold vans we make – that’s the whole gold there is anywhere and other nations don’t even know what gold is anymore. You can’t demand what you have never seen, right? I rushed 400g worth of Darwin’s in Kiev. Our science bar is full but Minsk will be cycled before Kiev so we will discover Ind and then Darwin will be built without loss of beakers.

    (7) 830: French dev Math. We discover Industry - > Corporation. Darwin built -> corporation discovered, vans upgraded to supervans -> electronics discovered -> researching steel which I couldn’t pick before, and it will lead us to automobile eventually. Galeons upgraded to transports. I will switch several cities to produce factories which will be supported by Hoover that I started building immediately in Kiev. Popped a hut east of Vitebsk -> rifleman. Tula founded north of Bryansk (for whale and buffalo specials). Smelnsk gold to Helio = 134g. Tbilisi gems to Helio = 138g. Vologda gold to Helio = 190g. Sverdlovsk cloth to Helio = 194g. Odessa oil to Helio = 180g. Novogrod salt to Helio = 134g. Odessa gold to Helio = 184g. Kazan coal (d) to Rheims = 355g. Riga gold to Rheims = 166g. Vladivostok gold to Rheims = 166g. 4k gold in treasury, spending on vans mostly and some factories.

    (8) 840: Steel discovered. Sadly, only useless techs are available for us at this point. I chose refrigeration. I might have made a mistake earlier, perhaps if I picked refining instead of electronics, I would have a different choice now. Oh well, too late. Another pollution near Minsk. St. Pete salt (d) to Lyons = 172g. Magnitogorsk gold&salt to Helio = 120g each. Astrakhan and Kazan vans delivered for some small income too. Kursk salt (d) to Lyons = 240g. I will rearrange our ship chain to Egypt so that I can deliver a few vans to Sioux, at least one link in it can be removed. Trade looks better; several commodities have been unlocked, including some silk, copper, dye and wine.

    (9) 850: Tbilisi beads (d) to Rouen = 140g. Smolensk silk (d) to Rheims = 330g. Science bar full. Many vans await on the Egyptian islands, some demanded. Vladivostok is also full of vans, ready to flood French continent next
    turn. Hoover rushed 400g. Gold down to 600 after Rbuying.

    (10) 860: Refrigeration discovered -> refining. I only moved a few engineers to complete railroads in crucial points so automated go-to vans would not lose their movement points. Lots of vans ready to be delivered, although I suggest reviewing which goes where – some in Vladivostok are better of going to Egyptians instead of French.

    Tips for the next player:

    - At some point in the next 3-4 turns, communism should be researched for United Nations. That way we won't have to bother with wars or refusal of peace. On the other hand, automobile is a priority if we can discover it without too many off-path techs.
    - I'd put stronger emphasis on building mines on hills and railroads on both hills and forests for extra shields. City railroad connections are mostly done at this point. Even with several factories and Hoover, our shield output seems dramatically low. Still, with enough vans we can rush most things.
    - We can establish a third ship chain to Sioux, even without building transports - only using some unneeded ships from Egyptian chain. Magnitogorsk should be the new relay city since railroads connect it with everything else at this point. Sioux demand gold in one of their cities and in the future might demand more.
    - I built sewers in some cities that were bound to grow at least 3-4 citizens but with one engineer per city as it is now, we can irrigate most stuff and raise cities to their maximum.
     

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  14. Blasph23

    Blasph23 Terraformation Junkie

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    Are we still playing this? I thought people got a little more engaged now that we're into the industrial age but apparently this is not the case.
     

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