"Mathematics" technology

[alchx]

Now in technology are:
Skirmisher
Hanging Gardens
Roman Forum

If there is no interest in chasing the construction of one of the two wonders, then the technology is opened only for the sake of Skirmisher. Some kind of emptiness is felt at this moment - research for the sake of the unit. If you are unlucky with the start and there are no horses nearby, then the meaning of the discovery of technology tends to zero. Perhaps it is worth moving some production building from another technology here?

Or something like a bonus to speed up the production of worker units, or -1 turn to build a road.
Or +2 happiness in the empire - we have learned to count, we are happy about it.
Or +3% income from city-connections - less embezzlement.

 

[DeAnno]

I agree that since the Archer line change it's been a lame tech.

Mathematics might be a good fit for the Water Mill. Masonry would still have the Arena.

 

[CrazyG]

We could consider moving the watermill or catapult back to mathematics. Interesting to think about, but not sure it would make the game better.

 

[Stalker0]

I think changing the water mill to math would be a very big nerf to the southern tech line, that can be a good reason to push down there. I personally think math is that bad, skirmishers are good units, there are amazing wonders on math, and its a core prereq tech for lots of other things. I'm not really seeing the problem myself.

 

[stii]

I think you just have to accept some techs won't have much. there aren't infinite things to give out nor should there be.

Does anyone even make catapults anyway? I try sometimes but even in perfect situations they are jsut awful

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Catapult to Math seems good I suppose. Wouldbring back the synergy with Phsyics for Unit upgrade path, that it had.

I made some Catapults when they were on Iron Working. They are only somewhat good vs Cities.

 

[CppMaster]

They are only somewhat good vs Cities.

Not really surprising for a siege unit, huh? They are also decent vs navy.

 

[josh4]

Should the question be "are catapults too weak". I do use siege weapons but only after armories (orders) buff, so starting from trebuchets.

 

[Stalker0]

Should the question be "are catapults too weak". I do use siege weapons but only after armories (orders) buff, so starting from trebuchetsI

Catapults are fine to me, its just the fact that early cities aren't quite as tough as they are in medieval. Castles are a big buff (as they should be), which somewhat mandates trebuchets.

Now you want to take a good tradition capital in the early game without catapults, well that's just asking for pain.

 

[josh4]

Now you want to take a good tradition capital in the early game without catapults, well that's just asking for pain.

I think xbows and melee units are much better, you will probably not even move you catapults toward the city in a time when you can start barraging it with xbows and attack with melee, then roll out units to back to heal.

 

[Slyceth]

The hugest problem is the AI hates the Roman Forum and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus. It must be because they are not vanilla wonders so they've been coded in poorly. They are open for far longer than any other wonders and it's very easy to build Temple of Artemis (if you kinda rush to it) then those 2 wonders, and be seen as a wonder aggressor.

 

[Stalker0]

I think xbows and melee units are much better, you will probably not even move you catapults toward the city in a time when you can start barraging it with xbows and attack with melee, then roll out units to back to heal.

do you mean cbows? if you have xbows than I hope you would have trebuchets at that point!

 

[XSamatan]

It must be because they are not vanilla wonders so they've been coded in poorly.

Do you have any evidence for this claim? In most of my games, Artemis and Mausoleum are the first 2nd-tier wonders to be build by the AI (on Emperor and Immortal difficulty settings)

Regards
XSamatan

 

[stii]

Yeah it varies so much patch to patch, game to game and even replaying the same exact start in the same way has the AI building different wonders sometimes!

 

[josh4]

do you mean cbows? if you have xbows than I hope you would have trebuchets at that point!

yeah i mean cbows and swordsmen. you need to have a lot of both.

 

[Stalker0]

yeah i mean cbows and swordsmen. you need to have a lot of both.

I would argue that cbows are actually a good bit later down the tech tree than catapults. So to me that is just using a superior unit. Aka you are a phase of war where the catapult is starting to phase out anyway.

 

[stii]

Well I'd rather have archers than catapults too. A city with walls means you will at most get one attack off with a catapult, and if they don't have walls archers will do anyway.

But I don't think this is a real problem worth removing the catapults entirely or changing them, before castles you don't want siege and that makes a reasonable amount of sense.

 

[josh4]

well, iirc, there'll be s change to that, cause now cities and ranged units make enormous damage to catapults which youc an't cycle on and off cause of movement penalty.

now, range and cities will do much smaller damage to siege

 

[pineappledan]

There was a loud and adamant group of people who did NOT want catapults returning to math, because it slowed classical military rushes too much if you split the siege away from the swords.