Maximizing Great Leader Appearances

[SoRHunter]

My friend, the Portuguese, says that first we should attack an unit with a regular or veteran to weaken it. Then bring the Elite to finish the weakened unit. :die:

At first I disagreed, but he told me that I do not risk my Elite unit getting killed this way, maximazing the odds of getting a Great Leader. After a while, I realised he advised me well.

 

[Grey Knight]

The flaw in that is if the regular wins the battle -- meaning there is no weakened unit to finish off!

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Grey Knight
The flaw in that is if the regular wins the battle -- meaning there is no weakened unit to finish off!

A good point, but in that case, you would still have your Elite unit at full health for when the opportunity does arise, plus the regular may have been promoted.

Bombardment is also a very good way to weaken units for the coup de grâce. Here is an example with seven Swordsmen against Cavalry units deep in the Industrial Age (I'd been saving those Elites for this moment!):

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm9/ad1600-Sword.htm

 

[Perfection]

I never thought about that way KUDOS to you Zachriel

 

[kring]

Thank you Catt, that was the point I was trying to make, but you did it better than I did.

The part about unit disparity was answered:

Specifically:
----------
Odds with Heroic Epic = 1/12
Odds without Heroic Epic = 1/16
The odds are halved for defenders (1/24 and 1/32).

Mike B

Mike gave the odds of GL creation. He doesn't mention different odds for unit disparity. He used the word Specifically which is used to indicate specifics. If there were different odds for unit disparity, he would have included them in that statement.

In my test, I got 3 GL's in one turn, 2 back to back. I immediately disbanded after each one was created and before my next attack. These were all full strength Warriors attacking Warriors on grasslands/plains. Thus answering the Warriors can get GL's question.

A good example of individual perception that isn't actual: in my latest 1.29f patch games, the AI is attacking (warring) other civs, including me, a lot more frequently than in my earlier games using the same civs. Other people have noticed the opposite: less war is occurring in their games. Has warring changed? In my games, up; in other people's games, down. In still others, no change.

Until someone shows me either a Firaxian answering different OR hacked code that verifies other factors, I will accept the odds to not be affected by unit disparity, the fact that I use the mouse to attack with vs the keypad, my left knee is in pain, or any other way.

If you test long enough, you will get results that support any theory, including the ones in my above paragraph.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by thefrenchzulu
Nope it doesn't!

Looking at the straight odds as mentioned, how do they explain MA nearly always gets promoted on third win in a single attack! Considering the odds, thats rubbish. I nealy always gets promoted on second succesful attack and spits out a leader on the third succesful attack! Straight odds? Rubbish.

Anyone who has played with MA and use multiple attack per round knows this. So, there are other factors built in, not mentioned in the straight odd scenario.

I find and I get leaders!, that unit disprity makes a difference.

I tried 2 of your theories and found them both to be wrong, (assuming that I understood them correctly).

Modern armor does not "almost always" produce a leader on the 3rd blitz attack on the same turn.

And I tried attacking weaker units against stronger units and found no increase in leaders produced.

Mike B.'s probabilities seem to be correct (1/16 or 1/12 for an attack victory). There are some cases in which the probability is zero though:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24371

 

[Windrake]

I am convinced that the best way to get GLs is to find a way to play as an AI civ. Those guys seem to be on the forward edge of the power curve when it comes to GLs.

 

[Evincar]

Once and for all:

About the MA generating so many leaders, the reason is OBVIOUS:

If you blitz with these monsters, you kill 3 units. What are the chances of getting a Greal Leader?

W/O Heroic Epic (¡!) 1-(1-1/16)^3=0.176=17.6%
With Heroic Epic: 1-(1-1/12)^3=0.23=23%

That's why you get so many leaders attacking multiple times with MA, BUT the chances en each battle are the same. It's just that you kill so many units that you are very likely to get GL, but nothing else.

BTW how cares about Modern Armor generating leaders?? by the time you are using them, the game is over, and, 99% of the times, it's in your pocket

 

[XOVER]

That old thread was great. And long. Many interesting facts, insights, and ideas in it. WTH happened to the thread?

I like the patch in 1.29 where you can name the elite units that produced the GL so you can farm them out for defense duty or eligible for upgrade.

 

[thefrenchzulu]

OK, my theory seems wrong Was only a theory! For those having sleepless nights. Leaders don't win you the game!

Originally posted by thefrenchzulu


Interesting that MBF ignored the question pertaining to unit disparity?

Had this chat over the weekend:


[08:17] *** Guest65146 (~java@=Htvjs67slsx95.towson01.md.comcast.net) has joined channel #civfanatics
[08:18] *** Guest65146 is now known as MikeBeer
[08:27] *** tfz_playing_civ is now known as tfz_loves_beer
[08:27] <tfz_loves_beer> hello mikeB
[08:27] <MikeBeer> hi
[08:27] <King_of_Camelot> MIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[08:27] <King_of_Camelot>
[08:28] <tfz_loves_beer> hell I was sorry I slept right through the chat the other day
[08:28] <MikeBeer> You've all been awfully quiet tonight
[08:29] <King_of_Camelot> yeah, and its a friday, or...was for you
[08:29] <MikeBeer> yeah
[08:31] <rangers85> ello
[08:31] <MikeBeer> howdy
[08:32] <tfz_loves_beer> Mike can I ask you a leader creation question?
[08:33] <MikeBeer> sure
[08:34] <tfz_loves_beer> Does unit disparity play any role? I tend to get more leaders with horsemen than with knights. Both attacking spearmen.
[08:34] <MikeBeer> Nope. Makes no difference
[08:34] <tfz_loves_beer> no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[08:35] <tfz_loves_beer>
[08:35] <tfz_loves_beer> lost an arguement there
[08:35] <MikeBeer> uh, sorry....
[08:35] <MikeBeer> it's mostly random.. maybe too random...
[08:36] <MikeBeer> The only time you can't get a leader is in combat with barbarians...
[08:36] <tfz_loves_beer> I know the figures, but it makes sence that a hardly fought battle should create more promotions
[08:37] <tfz_loves_beer> MA vs spearmen not really going to result in elite units
[08:37] <tfz_loves_beer> in real life
[08:38] <MikeBeer> true... but civ isn't real...
[08:38] <tfz_loves_beer> I read something about combat modifiers to give ancient units a chance, is that true?
[08:38] <rangers85> it isn't?
[08:38] <MikeBeer> No that's not true
[08:39] <MikeBeer> You get a bonus against barbarians.... but not against ancient units
[08:40] <MikeBeer> We didn't want players who get behind to be guaranteed a loss which is why we didn't give any combat modifiers.. also why spearmen can beat tanks...
[08:40] <tfz_loves_beer> did you program any thing in that result in leader popping left, right and centre if you got no wonders to rush? I'm 230BB had 4 so far
[08:40] <tfz_loves_beer> deity game and behin in tech
[08:41] <MikeBeer> There's nothing special about leaders... just a random chance. Some ppl get them all the time; others get them rarely if at all...
[08:42] <tfz_loves_beer> They should fight more
[08:42] <MikeBeer> Maybe they're culture ppl like me... I rarely get leaders...
[08:43] *** {^^patty450^^} (~patty450@=7Pbqpv-5.ras-1.sti.n.cscoms.com) has joined channel #civfanatics
[08:43] <rangers85> yup, I"m more a builder as well
[08:43] <tfz_loves_beer> I'm playing a tournament game now. Need to win by culture. It helps if you are the only culture though
[08:44] <rangers85> I wish there was a way to get a leader through culture somehow as well
[08:44] <MikeBeer> at one time (before release) we had a cool great leader "concept" but it sounded better in design documents than it actually worked out to be...
[08:45] <rangers85> well, I was thinking maybe when borders expand there's a slight chance for a leader, definately not as big of a chance as combat, but at least a chance at one


Reckon this clarrifies some issues

 

[Mad Bomber]

Getting a great leader directly corresponds as to how many elites are in your army. This is why tanks and MA's provide more GL's because a vet can be promoted to elite in on turn. (a MA can actually go from vet to a GL with a turn w/ 3 attacks) So with these choices the best one is to use elites to attack weakened units. This does not increase your odds of a GL but the odds of your elite surviving. You should also pay attention to defending your weakened elites as an unprotected elite is destined to be counterattacked by the AI.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Getting a great leader directly corresponds as to how many elites are in your army.

All other things being equal, that is true, but see main section of http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24371 to see other factors. For example, if you have 100 elites in armies you will never get a leader from any of them.

 

[Mad Bomber]

sumthinelse:

Yes, it is true there are other factors, the two most notable are that a unit that has already created a leader cannot create another (unless upgraded) and you can only have one GL at a time. But all other things considered, the more attacks you have by elites the more GLs you will get (as long as you do something with the GL's) So, as I pointed out earlier If you want a GL, you must maximize the amount of elites in your army, by having your army veteran, so that fewer initial promotions are required and by protecting wounded or vulnerable elites (the only target the AI values above a worker ) One final note: a unit in an army will never create a GL, so leave you armies to attack only the truly vital targets. I also try to include any elites that have already created leaders into armies to maximize the effectiveness of the army as well as to not have units that cannot create GLs running around. The fewest leaders I have gotten in a game is 2 (not many wars in that one) and the most is upwards of 12 (went through a modified list of American Leaders twice (getting Nimitz from an MA was great!)

 

[Gundam]

u'll get one leader per war..it's simple P

 

[Mad Bomber]

Gundarn:

Absolutely incorrect, I have ha no leaders in 20 turn wars and have also had 3 leaders in one turn. The amount of wars or enemies you have is irrelevent.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Gundarn:

Absolutely incorrect, I have ha no leaders in 20 turn wars and have also had 3 leaders in one turn. The amount of wars or enemies you have is irrelevent.

Not really "irrelevant," because if you fight more wars, all other things being equal, you have a greater probability of generating leaders, since that would probably mean more elite victories. However, a single war with 100 elite victories (the elites assume to be "eligible" to create a leader, not in an army, etc.) would be more likely to create leaders than 5 wars with only 10 elite victories in each one.

You are right that Gundam's statement is obviously incorrect (but I think Gundam was making a joke and his smiley didn't work). It's amazing how many red herring theories we have. I say "we" because at one time I had a theory that you could never get a leader from attacking Zulu Impi (wrong of course). People used to believe that the sun revolved around the earth, and, based on the observations at that time, that theory seemed true.

 

[island007]

In the most general terms be in almost constant war with small peaceful interludes.


I just hit weak units with my elites. Once you get a leader from an elite upgrade that unit if you can; it becomes a vet and may get you another GL.

 

[penvzila]

I would have more elites... if my goddamn elite knights didn't lose to frickin veteren SPEARMEN!!! They tear up the puny pikemen, but i have used 2-3 knights on a SINGLE GODDAMN SPEARMAN! I thought pikemen were supposed to be better than spearmen. Pretty much makes them (pikemen) useless, since spearmen can also be upgraded to musketmen.

 

[Windrake]

Knights losing to spearman...

I don't feel like the Lone Ranger anymore!

 

[Skyfish]

Please excuse me ignorance, just started playing, but I need your
help guys !
My first game, playing Iroquois, first war to get rid of damn' Germans. By chance I get a GL after a few turns, I quickly bring him back to a barrack and push the command "Buld Army", GL transforms into flag bearer guy called Army, I send him back to the front and proceed to pile 3 veteran horsemen on him.
Next move, I happily attack a nearby city ...and guess what happens ? I lose horseman after horseman, what's this thing about the Army ? How do I make it work ? there was absolutely no difference...
Help please !


SKYFISH