Maximizing MoV

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Libraridan, Nov 16, 2013.

  1. Libraridan

    Libraridan Chieftain

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    Is there a "best" build/policy order for maximizing MoV?

    I went Tradition first but have seen a good argument for Liberty (MoV in place of Settler). Good idea?

    I used my first two for puppets but then used the rest to make gold and/or keep wayward CS loyal.

    Any tips or tricks may help with my next game.

    I chickened out on my first game and went Warlord. Now I am sitting on about 20k gold, all CS allies (small world), and trying to trick a backwards civ into the Atomic Age before the clock runs out (not confident). :rolleyes:
     
  2. Mailman_Posty

    Mailman_Posty Chieftain

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    As Venice I almost always go tradition then commerce into ideology. I do the same as you do with the mov's. Grabbing two puppets then using the rest to generate gold and cs friendship. Although I only play with dom victory enabled so my strategy from there is to buy an army and begin building a giant puppet empire from all my neighbors. This got me my first victory on diety and immortal.
     
  3. Libraridan

    Libraridan Chieftain

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    Giant puppet empire with DV is what I did with Russia on a Pangaea map. Moscow just got very tall and that was enough.

    I am enjoying trying out all the victory types, slowly working my way up the difficulty ladder. Given my success with my first Venice board I may jump to King or higher.
     
  4. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    The only good argument for Liberty and Venice is because you are bored on Deity and want to try something different.

    Venice + Liberty = gimped game

    If you want to max MoV production, just bee line Currency after Phyo, and Banking after Education and you will get plenty of MoV's
     
  5. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Maximizing MOV to buy out just about every city state on the map is actually sub-optimal policy for Venice. Unless playing on a map bigger than standard, diminishing science returns would be a factor after 10 cities and you'll spawn at least that many MOV without doing anything to get extra MOVs. (Over half your science will be from Venice; even a puppet needs 5% of your empire's total just to pay for itself.)

    Also, there's no need for an ultra early beeline to Optics either; if you wait a few more turns, the city state will be a bit bigger and have connected their resources. And with the Cultural penalty of puppets, if you see a national wonder just outside a city state's borders you are much better off waiting to buy that city state until after the city state acquires it.

    The main things are that you want Venice to grow super tall so that it can run your guilds, your merchant slots, and your science slots. This makes the main purpose of your first four city states being for each of them to run a food cargo ship to Venice. (In late game, consider switching those to hammers.) This will still leave you with 12 cargo ships for gold routes. (More if you build world wonders.) Venice does indeed need to fill all those science slots (and fill the merchant & guild slots). Because science & merchants are on the same cost increase schedule; if you don't start scientists early then by the time you switch merchants off in Venice to rehire them as scientists every single one of your puppets with their gold emphasis will be so far along towards a great merchant that they will all spawn a great merchant before Venice can spawn a Scientist.
     
  6. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    I would go with Tradition, Commerce and Rationalism. Commerce for both the buying discount and the boost to trade missions. Don't even both with buying any CS's. Save your MoV's for the super trade missions and gain your puppets thru conquest/peace deals. With all the cash from tr5ade missions and the doubled number of trade routes, you can buy all the buildings/units you need, allowing Venice the time to build world/national wonders and guilds.

    I'd take Commerce down the right side to the cheaper purchases then go into Rationalism. Work on finishing off Commerce when down to just the 1 policy left in Rationalism so you can time free tech for when you need it in the late game.
     
  7. EK834

    EK834 Prince

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    I've played most of my BNW games with Venice on Emperor and King. I'm about to move to Immortal with it, as soon as I've fined tuned the early-NC without the GL strategy, as I realize it's still as powerful on Emperor as it was on King (and on Prince to which I went back for the first BNW game it was ridiculously overpowered). I'm guessing it's a Civ that can be played at least one difficulty level above your usual one.

    The Civ is however extremely versatile, though the start location will block some options.

    How best to use the MoV depends very much on the kind of Venice game you wish to play and on your situation. A production heavy start location means you need to plan to have more puppets than usual to feed Venice so it can both use the production tiles and fill the specialist slots while still growing fast. A great spot for growth reduces the need for a food TR early on and reduces the interest of getting Optics early or using its MoV to puppet a CS - it's then more interesting to ally a CS and use the gold to buy key buildings or a few units or even more cargo ships as those take a lot of turns best spent on what can't be bought, like the NC.

    The two main reasons to want an early puppet (from Optics) is whenever you feel Venice is gonna have problems growing early. No river, too many plains/hills, too many jungle tiles taking forever to improve etc. Letting it get outpaced in growth = falling back even more in science. Then puppeting the closest CS a.s.a.p. is a solution. The other reason to absolutely want an early puppet is if you realize Venice won't be able to reach any city for a TR before you get an harbor, and then you really need to find a puppet that can, and ideally it can also reach Venice to provide it food. Otherwise it's much better to puppet later, when the CS have grown and produced many buildings and units.

    I'm also in the "Full tradition first" camp, occasionally opening Honor for an early culture bonus if I have a good location to have a lot of barbarians to kill (on archipelago, alone on my island, for instance. I make sure to leave them a spot to spawn a camp, then I farm it). I normally don't touch Liberty with Venice, not even to get the free MoV. IMO, it's not worth it and that culture is best spent in Rationalism, Aesthetics, Commerce or Patronage (scholasticism can be extremely powerful for Venice as you're so rich all the CS are yours early, providing a substantial percentage of your total beakers or pushing your science through the roof if you're already very strong). With a single city to produce them and often busy with National ones, even more than other Civs Venice relies on keeping a good tech lead to have a chance to build Wonders.

    How to maximize the # of MoV is the same as maximizing the number of Great People in any Tall, specialist-heavy game. To get MoVs specifically you focus more on economic techs and their buildings that have great merchant slots. A religion isn't vital, but producing a lot of Faith (yourself or via CS allies) to buy GP by Industrial helps.

    Like other have said it's not always a good thing to produce a ton of MoVs at the expense of less GS or GE. The gold and influence with CS come easy to Venice, it's the growth and thus science game you need to play well.

    For Venice Science Victories you're much better stop working those GM slots once you have your 2-3 puppets required for growth (want more? wage war and get a few extra cities to serve as granaries for Venice). You need those GS for Academies much more (especially if you don't have a mountain for an observatory), and it's GS you'll need to buy or produce to bulb after your RL is up.

    For a culture victory with Venice you can't count on having many archaeological sites of your own to dig up, and Venice doesn't have the luxury to produce archaeologists in secondary cities, and Venice can't afford to spend too many turns producing those anyway, unless you can buy the stuff (don't work for NW or Wonders...). Your either need more puppets with culture buildings for the GW, or you mix the production/purchase of GS and GE to get in time to the cultural Wonders with many slots, and in between work all the writer/musician/artists slots. Of course you can also capture a capital or two.

    The widest I went for a CV with Venice was 1+5 cities, also did it with 1+2 cities.

    I've got my earliest Venice SV on Emperor with 10 cities, but only one was an early bought puppet. 6 others included two captured capitals and four cities obtained in peace deals and finally late game I got the two biggest CS on the map and bought them their PB/RL and in one case an Observatory the first turn as I still needed the science boost.

    I had one Domination game with it on King, with 16 cities (plus quite a few razed ones).

    There comes a point in many Venice games where having more MoV isn't in any way useful. There's nothing left to buy that's truly useful for your victory and you're swimming in gold from TR anyway, you have either all the CS as allies or the remaining ones are within reach of your spies or your deep pocket.

    I some late games I had a little army of MoVs (usually those my puppets spawn...) that I used for mischief and obstruction, like puppeting late game the CS the AI had 300+ influence with.

    In the Domination game I used them strategically, and they came with a navy, army and carriers full of bombers. The MoV bought the CS in reach of an enemy capital, I bought it an Airport, and the next turn that city was ready for the war. Rinse and repeat.

    In diplo games, if I see I might actually have difficulties winning if the AI stole just a few CS from me I like to park a few MoV in CS allied with the AI. When the time is right, I make the decision to either buy the CS or bulb all the MOVs already in place and I spend everything to give myself a good safety margin in Influence with all the allies I need to win. In most Venice games it's totally overkill and I rather need to cheat and abstain to vote to delay WL so I can finish another victory condition, though.
     
  8. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

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    Are you absolutely sure? I thoght puppets needs 5% of science from capital to be beneficial.
     
  9. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    It's just like the per city Cultural penalty. Each city increases science costs by 5% (standard map size or lower). -> Break even is for that city to be 5% of your empire's total.

    It addition, it's also based on the largest number of cities you ever had. (If you lose a city; it won't decrease science costs)
     
  10. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

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    I did some testing and you are right about one point. If you lose a city you build science penalty stays but if you sell puppeted city science cost goes down. And that was very old puppeted city(it wasnt in resistance anymore).

    Also science isnt 5% from total is 5% from base science cost.

    I had 6 cities and I build 2 more cities on same turn just to test this out:
    next tech science cost with 6 cities was 5235,
    7 cities 5437
    and with 8 cities 5638

    Percentage difference between 7 and 8 cities can be calculated following way (5638-5437)/5437 = 0.037 which means science cost goed up only 3,7% from total science cost

    Same seems to go for policy cost too. It's calculated from base policy cost not from total policy cost.
    Culture cost for next policies were: 6 cities and 3190,7cities and 3400 and 8 cities and 3615

    So break even for science is usually 5% from your capitals science if you play as venice. You must have unbeliavable crappy capital if it produces less science than one puppet.
     

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